Why does the trinity matter... or not? (page 2)

Borgia

Blast it. The format did not work.

Sorry.

Cheers

Borgia

Honesty

What are ways at helping JWs get past this as an issue, or at least ways we can combat it? How have you dealt with the issue of the trinity? Curious...

Acts 28:25 Disagreeing among themselves, they began to leave after Paul made one statement: “The Holy Spirit correctly spoke through the prophet Isaiah to your forefathers

Acts 13:2 ...the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work that I have called them to.”

Romans 10:8-9 This is the message of faith that we proclaim:

if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 10:13 For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

Right after Jesus said at John 10:30 - "I and the Father are one" The Jews took up stones again to stone him for blasphemy & makest thyself God.
So right there at the time - the Jews did not "interpret" as the Jws do - as being "in union" - like we think the same way.... but that Jesus meant what he said - I and the Father are one. 10:38 that ye may know, and believe that the Father is in me and i in him. The Interlinear Greek - English New Testament.

I think that the JWs believe quite a bit in the list you gave - they just give the concepts different names/versions.

Immortal soul - Jesus was a human, died then lives forever as a spirit - they don't have a problem with that. As well, JWs believe that they (a soul) will live forever (immortal) in paradise (where god is) aka heaven.

Trinity - they actually have many of their own versions of this concept. they can't comprehend (as the bible foretells) in the mystery of Christ, so they make up their own - Jesus by their teaching was many persons in one + they baptize in the name of the Father, Son, & Spirit directed Org.
Obeying the WT is same as Obeying God - they are One

Hell - taught as the place where god is not/the state without god - JWs call this disfellowshipping and most can agree - they put your thru hell/agony.

The name Jehovah - everyone knows this is just a made up word of a translation. Inserting vowels, translated to english. Yahweh is just as easy to say & is a much older translation. The way they thro this familiar "nickname" around is not very hallowed. Jesus said we should pray to our Father, the one in heaven....

wp

grey matters

Dreamer Dreaming, right on.

The thing is, my dad really enjoys arguing about this. Growing up, if someone encountered a Trinitarian in service that wanted to argue the point, and couldn't successfully, he would be the one to go back and do it. He took me along on several of those calls, to "show me how to do it", right down to the Elohiem and all of that. The feeling that I came away from those discussions with was that you could argue it either way. I just don't see how it affects my life. So I don't think it matters.

barry

Of course the majority view is the trinity amongst Adventists.

The Arian view in the early church was a johny come lately and the Nicean creed came out of the creed of Ceasarear. In fact they originally were baptisimal statements and they all had the same basic structure. Barry

jschwehm

I think what is even more fascinating is how the JWs tell others what they believe. It is pretty much all in the negative.

1. The JWs do not believe in the Trinity

2. The JWs do not believe Jesus is God.

3. The JWs do not believe in an immortal soul.

4. The JWs do not believe that Christians go to heaven.

5. The JWs do not believe that all believers will see Jesus face to face.

6. The JWs do not believe that Jesus rose bodily from the dead.

Basically, if you take the Apostles Creed or the Nicean Creed and reformulate it to say we don't believe then you have the basic creed of the JWs. That is why one sociologist whose name escapes me at the moment referred to the JWs as "The Apostles of Denial".

One friend of mine even said that JWs are defined by what they do not believe in..........kinda par for the course if you think about it for a religion that is in general so negative about everything and everyone.

Jeff S.

www.catholicxjw.com

drew sagan

One friend of mine even said that JWs are defined by what they do not believe in

Quite true. It's a position of social alienation, one that allows them to seperate themselves from everbody else and not be linked to any other similiar group. So many differant groups do this in order to build followers.
To me though, it seems like JWs are doing less and less of this. They tried to go to simple and not even teach their doctrines (like the knowledge book), but that didn't work. Now they have moved into converting people with the Bible Teach book. The doctrine is back, but it is way over simplified and most people that have read that book say that it pretty much sucks.
I agree with one of the posters who said that as soon as you realized that Jesus dosn't get the same position in their theology that the Bible gives him your eyes are opened. You can really start to see how people developed the concept of the trinity, and it makes you realize that understanding the full nature of Christ isn't something we need to be divided about. It can be argued either way, but even at that the Watchtower dosn't argue well. They use it as a way to lower Christ and raise their own position.

AuldSoul

And so, they have seated themselves in the seat of Jesus, but they are not willing to budge with their finger the burdens they place on others.

And so, they shut up the kingdom of heavens before men, literally removing the means by which someone could gain access. They themselves do not go in, neither do they permit those on their way in to go in.

And so, they make endless additions and "refinements" to the law of Christ in the interests of protecting their presumptive authority and making the people spiritually dependent on them, and in so doing they strain out gnats (YMCA) while joining the UN/DPI as an Associate member and maintaining the relationship for ten years.

And so, they condemn those who speak truth to humiliations, indignities, and ostracism which they compare to stoning, filling up the measure of those who killed the prophets and our figurative blood comes upon their figurative heads.

And so, they govern and call themselves a Governing Body while Jesus said one is our Master and we are all brethren.

And so, I name them Pharisees, hypocrites, and offspring of viper without any fear that I am speaking ill of glorious ones—for how could a just God (i.e. Jesus) hold me to account for following his example?

Drew, I think it matters for the purpose of better understanding the fulfillment of prophecy and the nature of relationship with God. I will flesh out this idea more and send you a PM either today or tomorrow.

Respectfully,
AuldSoul

lovelylil

Drew and Jeff made some good points. The JWs are defined by their unique beliefs, most of which are easily proven false by reading the NT. They put Jesus on such a low level when the scriptures show he is and always was EQUAL to the father. According to the NT, the father's (Jehovah) arrangement is that all things at this time are subjected under the son. So we must honor and worship Jesus.

I am also more sympathetic to trinitarians since leaving the Tower like Narkissos. I still am not a full fledged one but they have a much better view of Jesus than the WT does.

The other teachings - the imortal soul, the bodily resurrection of Christ, all Christians will see Jesus, these are all Scriptural! I was shocked by how wrong the WT got it.

By the way, sometimes the old views stay with some who leave the WT. When I recently shared some research I did proving the bodily resurrection of Jesus with some other former JWs, well it did not go well and they stopped talking to me. They left the WT but still feel they are better than anyone in "Christendom" and they feel I have joined Satan's side by believing anything that the Churches teach. They left the WT because they feel they are now anointed and the WT will not accept it. But I think they still feel it is the truth only corrupt.

One big thing I discovered since leaving the WT is that mainstream churches got more right than the WT did, that is for sure. Lilly

P.S. Nowhere in the bible does it say belief in the trinity or anything else is essential for salvation. Jesus said LOVE not Head knowledge was the most important thing. The WT teachings are to distinguish them from all others calling themselves Christian and to try to elevate themselves over anyone else by saying you must believe their unique beliefs to be a real Christian. They self appointed themselves as the only true Christians and In their complete haughtiness they fail to understand that THEY are not to judge their brother or sister as being Christian, that is Christ's job. And they prove that they themselves are not Christ like - hence are not true Christians at all.

smellsgood

- JWs don't believe in the immortality of the soul

- JWs don't believe in Hellfire

- JWs use the name Jehovah

- JW's don't believe in the trinity

smellsgood: Such as Christadelphians,,,disbelieve Hell, Trinity, Immortality of the soul....plus, there's a nifty warning about the internet on one of their sites, kindof reminds me of, shoot, that towery religion in beverly heights or something.
http://www.christadelphian.org.uk/net/danger.html
Their doctrine is not unique. Arian who? fourth century, what?

smellsgood

Why does the trinity matter... or not?