Before I return to my previous 'topic'...

by AGuest 52 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Cassiline

  Good point D Wilshire!

  C

  When the pain of being where we are, becomes greater than our fear of letting go...we will risk and heal and grow.
• 

  JustAThought

  Dare I say that the U.S. atomic bombing of Nagasaki, and Hiroshima, Japan, were, are, and, will continue to be, a controversial issue. If you were to ask me of my opinion on the matter, I (who, like many of you, wasn’t around when THAT decision was made), off the top of my head, would say that I would have preferred a different course of action.

  I think that, as we consider this, we ought to attempt to see THAT decision in the context in which it occurred. The U.S., undeniably, had attempted to avoid entering the war, and only entered the war when definitively U.S. interests were attacked. Japan’s primary ally in the war, Germany, had been defeated, at a cost of millions of lives, after an all-too-successful assault upon her neighbors in Europe. Japan’s assaults against the U.S. had also been turned back, likewise, at a cost of numerous military casualties. Military experts assured our government leaders that a successful invasion of the Japanese islands (one alternative considered to bring the Japanese to surrender) would be long, costly, and difficult. Let’s be clear here … the Japanese were beaten (though today we might have talked about the threat of Japanese terrorism … remember the kamikazi’s?), and Germany was beaten. On the other hand, the specter of a Soviet threat was growing (it is widely accepted that the dropping of the bombs was as much to intimidate the Soviets, as it was for any other purpose). It is in the midst of this highly-charged political context that the decision to drop atomic bombs on (2) Japanese cities, each connected, in some way, with the Japanese war effort, was made. The documents say that Truman initially specified that only military targets would be considered, but somehow that resolution was lost/modified, so that the highly civilly populated cities of Nagasaki and Hiroshima were ultimately targeted, resulting in a massive loss in civilian life.

  Fast-forward to September 11-13, 2001. Terrorist attacks on the U.S. destroy/damage significant landmarks in key American cities. It is estimated that the number of American casualties will exceed 10,000. All U.S. air-travel is grounded for a period of no less than (2) days. American citizens stage a massive rescue/recuperation effort for victims of the attacks. The president promises Americans that justice will be meted out to those responsible, and thousands are assigned the task of ferreting out the truth.

  I predict that the action ultimately taken by the U.S. government, in response to the terrorist attacks, will be measured, and will be focused toward eliminating the threat of further terrorism in the world.

  Hopefully, the measures taken will be more effective than the, apparently, ineffective measures we’ve taken in response to terrorism in the past. I was shocked to learn that the (6) individuals convicted of the original bombing of the World Trade Center in ’93 (6 killed, 1000 wounded), are each currently serving life-sentences. Of course, (1) of (2) convicted participants in the more recent Oklahoma City bombing has been executed, and the state of Oklahoma is gearing up to try the other participant, Terry Nichols, with the death penalty as a goal. As regards this latest act of terrorism on U.S. soil, the current investigative activity by the Federal Government suggests that the accordance of recompense ONLY to those actually guilty (whether of the crime OR of harboring the criminals), rather than mounting a more broad response, even in regard to those dancing in the streets, is yet a guiding principal.

  Do I see moral progress?

  JustAThought
• 

  AGuest

  Okay, let me clarify with regard to my PERSONAL position:

  My 'brothers'...

  Are not all black.
  Are not all women.
  Are not all American.
  Are not all old.
  Are not all young.
  Do no all live on US soil.

  Yada, yada, yada...

  I am sorry, but my vision... and my 'sight'... is not limited to the soil of the U.S. of A. Indeed, it is not even limited to this 'realm'. I do not 'see' peripherally. Every time a car bomb goes off somewhere, every time a child is molested somewhere, every time a drive-by shooting takes place... somewhere... every time a missle is deployed and detonated... somewhere... every time a family is gunned down... somewhere... every time a building of innocent people is blown up... somewhere... ANYWHERE... in this 'realm'... I feel it. I have even been told by some, when watching movies of heinous acts, that I perhaps have no 'feeling', because I do not react emotionally. To MOVIES. Because I can 'feel' in the REAL world... such that it is.

  In truth, I feel almost every last one. From the four African children age 4 to 11 left to fend for themselves after losing two sets of parents to AIDS (28,000,000 people are dying, dear ones... and I FEEL that...), to the babies shown in the Oklahoma bombing, to the little boy and his father gunned down by an Israeli soldier while hiding behind a barrel, to the 255 firefighters, 400+ airline passengers and COUNTLESS others who lost their lives Tuesday. To the 6 million of the Holocaust... to the 250,000 of Hiroshima. I FEEL it.

  So, if I sound haughty... and judgmental... it is not my intention, nor is it directed at any one side of the coin. What YOU perceive as haughtiness, to ME... is a bearing of pain. For the loss of life. Life, dear ones... is life. And there is NO justification for 'earthling' man, on his own, taking life. Whether on this country's soil... or another.

  I am not anti-American. By place of birth, I AM an "American", and grateful to BE such, for I do not have to suffer a fraction of the atrocities my brothers... and many others... elsewhere do. But just because my national 'leaders' may be for war, just as THEIR national leaders may be for it, their leaders dropping a bomb on me is NO more justified than my leaders dropping one on their innocent.

  I am sorry that I cannot get behind the 'patriotism' that many feel at this time. But is only because my 'world'... expands far, FAR past the shores of the United States.

  The WTC disaster was a devastating atrocity. Hiroshima... was a devastating atrocity. No matter WHAT the 'justification'. Our 'morality' is not necessarily someone ELSE's 'morality'. The GOVERNMENT of Japan warred against 'us'; NOT the citizens of Nagasaki and Hiroshima. Just like the GOVERNMENT (by reason of condoning such) of those responsible for Tuesday's disaster is 'warring' with the GOVERNMENT of the United, and NOT the citizens that were slaughtered. But... since World War I, since battles are no longer fought on the battle fields, it's ALWAYS the citizens that are slaughtered, isn't it?

  Bush ain't going nowhere; Ben Laden ain't going nowhere. Did Hassan? Khadafi? Reagan? The Emperor of Japan? Since when do the 'higher' ups of EITHER side 'pay the price'? Not since such ones began sitting in their ivory towers... and hiding behind the innocent. And they do that HERE... as well as THERE.

  For those who consider themselves 'christian' (and yes, this applies because for all intents and purposes, the U.S. towts itself as a 'christian' county... yes?), war is justified, dear ones... ONLY with those who wish to 'die by the sword'. It is not, however, with those who have no personal 'interest' in the matter. That... is the slaughter of 'innocent' blood... and that... is not 'justified'.

  And if you wish to take this back to ancient Israel, we can. Most certainly. But in another thread.

  As always, I bid you peace.

  A slave of Christ,

  SJ
• 

  larc

  SJ,

  Again, you bring up what you consider a wrong action on the part of the U.S. during WWII. Again, I ask you what the U.S. should have done? This is my third request.
• 

  AGuest

  I'm sorry, dearest larc... I did not mean to overlook you. May you have peace.

  Since they felt 'justified' in 'returning evil for evil', the U.S. SHOULD have gone after those who perpetrated the crimes against them... and not those who didn't.

  You had to ask? Well, yeah, I guess you did.

  Peace.

  A slave of Christ,

  SJ
• 

  FiveShadows

  and the battle is on...

  on this corner we have...shelby!!! <<crowd goes wild>>

  in this corner we have larc and everyone else! <<crowd goes wild >>

  <ding, ding>

  and here we are on the first round...shelby throws a fast hard right. (Do you think this is what Hiroshima 'felt' like for those victimized by IT? I mean, how in the world can one compare a "terrorist" act that brought down two buildings and killed tens of thousands of innocent people... with an act of, what, war... that killed... what, millions? No comparison, really... right? Because THAT... was 'justified'; THIS... apparently for some... is not. )

  And COMF dodges! (Is it for you?)

  Shelby gets some help from Wiltshire and the announcer FiveShadows!! (I must confess, that was a very good post. The was thinking the SAME thing...shelby, )

  And we get another right from shelby...and the people retaliate and throw a right....and a left...and another right....and left...shelby's not giving up! she pushes back in with another right and a left ...IT'S A WAR ZONE DOWN HERE FOLKS! <ding ding>

  20 min break and we're on the ROUND TWO! (page two)

  Shelby comes out standing strong ...and starts out with hand shake anoucning peace...yet still giving it a good nudge on the shoulder playfully. the PEOPLE don't want to listen! they start out with a left and go towards shelby with another right and left and right ...shelby seeing her odds here REFUSES TO GIVE UP! ...wait..wait...what's this...she's pulling out her secret weapon! it's the MASTER!!! (no sarcasm intended)and she throws a HARD upper cut! ("Because I can 'feel' in the REAL world... such that it is" post. )

  wait a min folks! it's not over yet! larc thinks he can over come the master! and he throws a right jab! (Again, I ask you what the U.S. should have done? )

  Shelby dodges and throws in for the knock out! (Since they felt 'justified' in 'returning evil for evil', the U.S. SHOULD have gone after those who perpetrated the crimes against them... and not those who didn't. )

  IT'S ALL OVER FOLKS! IT'S ALL OVER! ...stayed tuned for your local news on the coverage of the transvestite and homosexual activity at rest area's through out the USA.

  FiveShadows

  p.s. ...that was too good to not comment on. :)
• 

  larc

  AGuest,

  You stated that they choose to "return evil for evil". This implies that they had another alternative. What was it?

  If they did not have another alternative, how would you suggest that they should have gone after those that caused the evil?
• 

  Julie

  The bombing of Japan and the attack on America are both horrible. At least the bombing stopped the war. The attack we just suffered is provoking one.

  We miss here the most important detail yet to come. It is likely that Afghanastan is going to be the target as they are unlikely to hand over bin Ladin. Those maniac fundies (a.k.a. the Taliban) have already subjected those poor people to unspeakable miseries and it is likely that those same folks who will suffer for this cowardly attack as well.

  One question: Where is your God now?

  Julie
• 

  Winston

  Julie,

  I can beleive the reasoning:
  

  The bombing of Japan and the attack on America are both horrible. At least the bombing stopped the war. The attack we just suffered is provoking one.

  How can anyone put a price on life, so we can judge which have merit.

  Don't you see Shelby can't answer your question because she don't judge. There is no way she would even atempt.

  How long have you LIVED and how long has God LIVED?
  1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 to .000000000000000000000000000000001
  Who is like God?
• 

  TD

  How can anyone put a price on life, so we can judge which have merit.

  We can’t. None of us can elevate the value of one human life over another. All life is precious. All human life is, or at least should be, equal. However that’s not quite the issue raised at the beginning of this thread. The circumstances under which life is taken or simply lost are not all equal, which is the whole reason why most judicial systems recognize different types of homicide and varying degrees of culpability relative thereto.

  A peace-time attack on an unprepared and unsuspecting urban populace carefully tailored to maximize human death and human suffering has been directly equated with a war-time attack on an aggressor nation where the populace was forewarned by radio and by leaflets dropped from the air of what was going to happen.

  Two reprehensible situations, but I still fail to see how they can be made to be moral equivalents without a great deal of generalization.