Need Help Fast!!!

by TweetieBird 16 Replies latest jw friends

  • TweetieBird
    TweetieBird

    My husband opened up Pandora's box with his mom today. Now she wants to come over this weekend to find out why we do not believe this is the truth anymore. She is a die-hard witness who eats, sleeps, breathes, "the truth."

    I'm trying to compile a few items that will explain our position. There are so many to choose from, but, I need solid evidence that it is not the truth. If it even smells of apostasy, she will put the blinders back on. It's a long shot, but if there is a slim chance that something we say will reach her heart, I would like to try. I doubt if that will happen and ultimately she may turn us into the elders, and if so, so be it.

    So, my dear friends, I am looking for things that she cannot dispute. I am especially interested in hearing from those who were once elders, mininsterial servants and pioneers as to what it was that convinced you that the JW's did not have the truth. I am also looking for scriptures to compare with one another to maybe help her see that maybe, just maybe, the witnesses do not have the truth.

    I am going to spend the next couple of days searching Freeminds website as I know Randy has lots of good information. I have put so much into my brain the past couple of years, it's so hard for me to formulate anything logical right now.

    Thank you in advance, as I know you guys will come through for me. Feel free to e-mail me if you want.

    Tweetie

    "By doubting we come at truth" -Cicero

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Download the 1943 Watchtower from AlanF's post. If you cannot find it, I will post it for you. That Watchtower article shows that the Society directly quoted God as giving them inspired instructions, and affirmed this in the article by saying, "This has the same binding force and effect as when God said to the Logos, 'Let us make man in our image.'" That is clearly "Inspiration" if there ever was any ... and that made them an unquestionable false prophet and liar organization for which they will see the Second Death. Something like that ought to help some ... but my concluding rhetoric may be strong ... so guage it according to what you feel they can handle. - Amazing

  • betweenworlds
    betweenworlds

    Would you post that please amazing? I would LOVE to see it.

    Thanks

    BW

    "The important thing is to not stop questioning" Albert Einstein

  • TweetieBird
    TweetieBird

    I looked for it but could not find.

    I know that one of the things she will use in her and the Society's defense is the "new light" theory. I would really love to blow that one away.

    I am going to ask her to prove to us from the scriptures that Jehovah is using the GB as his faithful and discreet slave. I plan on stopping her dead in her tracks as soon as she starts quoting anything from the WT, I want to see the scriptural backing. Any ammunition for this one would be appreciated.

    "By doubting we come at truth" -Cicero

  • TweetieBird
  • TweetieBird
    TweetieBird

    Sorry, it only partially worked.

    "By doubting we come at truth" -Cicero

  • Pathofthorns
    Pathofthorns

    There is almost nothing you can show her to prove your position. No matter how logical and factual what you present is, she simply will not grasp it.

    The day she has the questions and desires to search, she will find the answers because she WANTS to. Otherwise it is a painfully slow road getting the die hard Witness to THINK.

    I know this is a crappy sounding post, but it is what I have seen with many people. I wish you the best.

    Path

  • zev
    zev

    hey tweets

    how r ya?

    i got some juicy stuff.

    complete with links to the pages that matter too.....

    its a letter i wrote to the u.n. when machisslop and kent steered me onto a story that was unbelievable.....

    here, read it for yourself...

    ___

    Something has come to my attention while browsing your website.
    It has raised some questions I was hoping you could answer for me.

    While reading through your brochure here
    http://www.un.org/MoreInfo/ngolink/brochure.htm I notice a paragraph stating
    that:

    "quote":

    >"What are the Criteria for NGOs to become associated with DPI?"
    >Organizations eligible for association with DPI are those which:
    >1.Share the ideals of the UN Charter;
    >2.Operate solely on a not-for-profit basis;
    >3.Have a demonstrated interest in United Nations issues and proven ability
    to reach large or specialized audiences, such as educators, media
    representatives, >policy makers and the business community;
    >4.Have the commitment and means to conduct effective information programmes
    about UN activities by publishing newsletters, bulletins, and pamphlets;
    >organizing conferences, seminars and round tables; and enlisting the
    cooperation of the media.

    This raised some questions for me when I also discovered on your site the
    name of an organization, whom I did not expect to find.
    From this link:
    http://www.un.org/MoreInfo/ngolink/ngodir/NGODirAlph/alphabet.htm

    I noticed this organization : WATCHTOWER BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY OF NEW YORK
    and clicking the link there gave me these results:
    >OrgName OrgAssociation Address1 Address2 City1 City2 StateProvince
    PostalCode CountryName Telephone Fax EmailInternet WebAddress RegionName
    >Subject
    >WATCHTOWER BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY OF NEW YORK DPI 25 Columbia Heights -
    Brooklyn - NY 11201-2483 UNITED STATES 718 560 >5000 718 560 8030 - -
    NORTHERN AMERICA & CARIBBEAN HUMAN RIGHTS

    I am a little concerned. What exactly is the role of this organization to
    the United Nations?
    Why am I concerned? Refer above to the paragraph I pasted and copied from
    your brochure.

    Now please, indulge me a little while I quote directly from the WATCHTOWER
    BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY publications concerning the things they say about
    your organization.

    "quote":

    *** re 241-2 33 Judging the Infamous Harlot ***(published in 1988)

    17 In what way is this symbolic wild beast full of blasphemous names?

    In that men have set up this multinational idol as a substitute for God's
    Kingdom-to accomplish what God says his Kingdom alone can accomplish.
    (Daniel 2:44; Matthew 12:18, 21)

    What is remarkable about John's vision, though, is that Babylon the Great is
    riding the scarlet-colored wild beast. True to the prophecy, Babylonish
    religion, particularly in Christendom, has linked itself with the League of
    Nations and its successor. "

    *** re 243 33 Judging the Infamous Harlot *** (published in 1988)

    21 What of the League's successor, the United Nations?

    From its inception, this body has also had the great harlot riding on its
    back, visibly associated with it and trying to guide its destiny. For
    example, on its 20th anniversary, in June 1965, representatives of the Roman
    Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church, together with Protestants,
    Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, and Muslims-said to represent two thousand million
    of earth's population-assembled in San Francisco to celebrate their support
    and admiration of the UN. On visiting the UN in October 1965, Pope Paul VI
    described it as "that greatest of all international organizations" and
    added: "The peoples of the earth turn to the United Nations as the last hope
    of concord and peace."

    Another papal visitor, Pope John Paul II, addressing the UN in October 1979,
    said: "I hope the United Nations will ever remain the supreme forum of peace
    and justice." Significantly, the pope made no mention of Jesus Christ or of
    God's Kingdom in his speech. During his visit to the United States in
    September 1987, as reported by The New York Times, "John Paul spoke at
    length about the positive role of the United Nations in promoting . . . 'new
    worldwide solidarity.'"

    *** re 248 34 An Awesome Mystery Solved ***(published in 1988)

    Ascending out of the Abyss

    6 The scarlet-colored wild beast did indeed climb out of the abyss. On June
    26, 1945, with noisy fanfare in San Francisco, U.S.A., 50 nations voted to
    accept the Charter of the United Nations organization.
    This body was "to maintain international peace and security." There were
    many similarities between the League and the UN. The World Book Encyclopedia
    notes: "In some ways, the UN resembles the League of Nations, which was
    organized after World War I . . . Many of the nations that founded the UN
    had also founded the League. Like the League, the UN was established to help
    keep peace between nations. The main organs of the UN are much like those of
    the League." The UN, then, is actually a revival of the scarlet-colored wild
    beast. Its membership of over 150 nations far exceeds that of the League's
    63; it has also taken on broader responsibilities than its predecessor."

    *** re 248 34 An Awesome Mystery Solved ***(published in 1988)

    8 The UN does not have the answers. And why? Because the Giver of life to
    all mankind is not the UN's life-giver.

    Its life span will be short, for according to God's decree, "it is to go off
    into destruction."

    The UN's founders and admirers do not have their names recorded in God's
    scroll of life.

    How could sinful, mortal men, many of whom mock God's name, achieve through
    the UN what Jehovah God has declared he is about to accomplish, not by human
    means, but through the Kingdom of his Christ?-Daniel 7:27; Revelation 11:15.

    9 The UN is actually a blasphemous counterfeit of God's Messianic Kingdom by
    his Prince of Peace, Jesus Christ-to whose princely rule there will be no
    end. (Isaiah 9:6, 7)

    *** re 249 34 An Awesome Mystery Solved ***

    Obviously, God's scroll of life will never contain the names of die-hard
    adherents of Babylon the Great or of any who continued to worship the wild
    beast.-Exodus 32:33; Psalm 86:8-10; John 17:3; Revelation 16:2; 17:5."

    *** re 249 34 An Awesome Mystery Solved ***

    Peace and Security-A Vain Hope

    10 In an effort to bolster the hopes of mankind, the United Nations
    proclaimed 1986 to be an "International Year of Peace," with the theme "To
    Safeguard Peace and the Future of Humanity." Warring nations were called
    upon to lay down their weapons, at least for one year. What was their
    response? According to a report by the International Peace Research
    Institute, more than five million soldiers were killed in combat during 1986
    alone! Though some special coins and commemorative stamps were issued, most
    of the nations did little about pursuing the ideal of peace in that year.

    Nevertheless, the world's religions-always anxious for a fine rapport with
    the UN-set about publicizing the year in various ways.

    On January 1, 1986, Pope John Paul II praised the work of the UN and
    dedicated the new year to peace. And on October 27, he assembled the leaders
    of many of the world's religions at Assisi, Italy, to pray for peace."

    *** re 250 34 An Awesome Mystery Solved ***

    13 Further, it is deeply significant that the world's religious leaders
    should join hands with the United Nations in calling for peace at this time.
    They would like to influence the UN to their own advantage, especially in
    this modern age when so many of their people are abandoning religion."

    *** w90 3/15 8-9 Sign of the Last Days

    Another part of the sign that Jesus gives is the appearance of "the
    disgusting thing that causes desolation." In 66 C.E. this disgusting thing
    appeared in the form of the "encamped armies" of Rome that surrounded
    Jerusalem and undermined the temple wall.

    "The disgusting thing" stood where it ought not.

    In the major fulfillment of the sign, the disgusting thing is the League of
    Nations and its successor, the United Nations.

    This world peace organization is viewed by Christendom as a substitute for
    God's Kingdom. How disgusting!

    In time, therefore, the political powers associated with the UN will turn on
    Christendom (antitypical Jerusalem) and will desolate her."

    Just in case you had doubts about the word "DISGUSTING " see the " Insight
    .."

    *** it-1 634 Disgusting Thing, also Loathsome Thing ***
    DISGUSTING THING, ALSO LOATHSOME THING

    The Hebrew nouns she'qets (loathsome thing) and shiq·quts' (disgusting
    thing) come from the root sha·qats', used in the sense of "loathe" (Le
    11:11, 13) and, in the causative form, 'make loathsome.' (Le 11:43; 20:25)
    These Hebrew terms refer to that which is repugnant from the standpoint of
    Jehovah's true worship. They are commonly rendered by such words as
    "abominate," "abominable," or "abomination" in many translations. This has
    resulted in the well-known expression "abomination of desolation." (Da
    11:31; 12:11, KJ) The Gospel writers Matthew and Mark used the Greek
    bde'lyg·ma to translate the Hebrew shiq·quts' (plural, shiq·qu·tsim'). (Da
    9:27; Mt 24:15; Mr 13:14) This Greek term basically implies that which
    causes disgust.-See DETESTABLE THING."

    *** w96 6/1 17 Flight to Safety Before the "Great Tribulation" ***

    Modern-Day "Disgusting Thing"

    11 Note that, in addition to what we have seen at Daniel 9:27, there are, at
    Daniel 11:31 and ..her references to "the disgusting thing that is causing
    desolation." In neither of these latter instances is the destruction of
    Jerusalem being discussed. In fact, what is said at Daniel 12:11 appears
    just two verses after a reference to "the time of the end." (Daniel 12:9) We
    have been living in such a time period since 1914. So we need to be alert to
    identify the modern-day "disgusting thing that is causing desolation" and
    then to be sure that we get out of the danger zone.

    12 What is that modern-day "disgusting thing"? The evidence points to the
    League of Nations, which went into operation in 1920, shortly after the
    world entered its time of the end. But how could that be a "disgusting thing
    that causes desolation"?

    13 Remember, the Hebrew word for "disgusting thing" is used in the Bible
    principally with reference to idols and idolatrous practices. Was the League
    idolized? Indeed it was! The clergy put it "in a holy place," and their
    followers proceeded to give it passionate devotion. The Federal Council of
    the Churches of Christ in America declared that the League would be "the
    political expression of the Kingdom of God on earth." The U.S. Senate
    received an avalanche of mail from religious groups urging it to ratify the
    Covenant of the League of Nations. The general body of Baptists,
    Congregationalists, and Presbyterians in Britain lauded it as "the only
    available instrument for attaining [peace on earth]."-See Revelation 13:14,
    15.

    14 The Messianic Kingdom of God had been established in the heavens in 1914,
    but the nations proceeded to fight for their own sovereignty. (Psalm 2:1-6)
    When the League of Nations was proposed, the nations that had just fought in
    the first world war, as well as the clergy who had blessed their troops, had
    already demonstrated that they had forsaken the law of God. They were not
    looking to Christ as King. Thus they assigned to a human organization the
    role of the Kingdom of God; they put the League of Nations "in a holy
    place," a place where it did not belong.

    15 As a successor to the League, the United Nations came into being on
    October 24, 1945. Later, the popes of Rome hailed the United Nations as "the
    ultimate hope for harmony and peace" and "the supreme forum of peace and
    justice." Yes, the League of Nations, along with its successor, the United
    Nations, truly became an idol, a "disgusting thing" in the sight of God and
    of his people."

    *** w96 6/1 18 Flight to Safety Before the "Great Tribulation" ***

    19 It is noteworthy that since the United Nations began operations in 1945,
    atheistic, antireligion elements have been prominent in its membership. At
    various times all over the world, such radical elements have been
    instrumental in having religious practices either severely restricted or
    completely banned. In the past few years, however, there has been a letup in
    many places in government pressure on religious groups. To some people it
    may seem that any danger to religion is gone.

    *** w99 5/1 15 "Let the Reader Use Discernment" ***

    8 Demonstrating the confidence of Jehovah's servants that this prophecy
    would be fulfilled, The Watchtower of January 1, 1921, focused on it in
    connection with developments in the Middle East. Subsequently, in its
    December 15, 1929, issue, on page 374, The Watchtower definitively said:
    "The whole tendency of the League of Nations is to turn the people away from
    God and from Christ, and it is therefore a desolating thing, the product of
    Satan, and an abomination in the sight of God."

    So in 1919 "the disgusting thing" appeared.

    In time, the League gave way to the United Nations.
    Jehovah's Witnesses have long exposed these human peace organizations as
    disgusting in God's sight."

    *** w99 5/1 17 "Let the Reader Use Discernment" ***

    This beast is supported by world rulers. Details supplied in the prophecy
    help us to identify this symbolic beast as a peace organization that came
    into existence in 1919 as the League of Nations (a "disgusting thing") and
    that is now the United Nations. "

    "End Quote"

    How is it possible to reconcile the WATCHTOWER BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY
    position as an NGO with the
    United Nations Organisation and these printed statements, from the
    WATCHTOWER BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY concerning the U.N.Organization???

    If you could find it possible to help me understand this, I would be most
    appreciative.

    Thank You very much.
    zev,
    A Citizen of the United States of America

    -Zev
    -August 8th, 2001 - The day the lambs ROARED

  • TweetieBird
    TweetieBird

    I agree with you Path, I'm just hoping to plant some seeds. That is pretty much what happened to me. My dad planted some seeds a few years before his death and one day, I looked around the KH and realized that maybe he wasn't off his rocker. Right now, her blinders are super-glued on.

    "By doubting we come at truth" -Cicero

  • zev
    zev

    now...if you need more...i can email you a link to a place where some discussion has been going of that really opens the blinders on ones eyes. it has been for me the last straw. maybe it can help you as well.

    lemme know

    -Zev
    -August 8th, 2001 - The day the lambs ROARED

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