How Does the WT Explain this verse

by XBEHERE 49 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • fjtoth
    fjtoth
    I am giving consideration to the rest of the NT. This is exactly what I am doing. I am just not willing to ignore or twist one passage beyond recognition to arrive at a certain, desired conclusion. I choose an overall view that lets all the passages fit into that overall view.

    Hellrider,

    I'm sorry, but I could hardly keep from laughing as I read this! You're a riot as you go through all kinds of acrobatic contortions with words to explain that the Father was not the one who raised Jesus. You so much want to hold on to your personal interpretation of John 2:19!

    As I weigh matters between trinitarian and non-trinitarian beliefs, my preference will always be to abide by what the Scriptures say, to compare scripture with scripture. I will abandon any belief in my mind that contradicts what I learn from the Scriptures. I will not reject a teaching if a majority of texts say one thing and one or two verses appear to say the opposite. I will ask why there is a difference. I will ask myself what am I not seeing in the apparently contradictory passage. If there is anything metaphorical about it, that could be why the contradiction seems to exist.

    To me it's very simple: Jesus said he would raise "this temple." He said the temple was his "body." There certainly was something metaphorical about that, because his listeners were not thinking of his body. They were thinking of the literal temple in Jerusalem. Even Jesus' apostles didn't know that he had gone metaphorical. Like the Jews, you are taking everything in that discussion as literal. They believed Jesus meant the temple, and you believe Jesus meant he would raise himself without any participation by the Father.

    The Bible is so plain, and I wish you could open your eyes to see what it actually says:

    • Galatians 1:1 specifically states that "God the Father" raised Jesus, but you insist that "God the Son" did it.
    • Jesus' resurrection is clearly explained at Acts 17:30, 31: "God [the Father] is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, because He [the Father] has fixed a day in which He [the Father] will judge the world in righteousness through a Man [Jesus the Son of God] whom He [the Father] has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him [Jesus the Son of God] from the dead."
    • Too many references regarding the resurrection of Jesus state that he was "raised" to allow for the thought that he raised himself by his own power alone. There are verses that state Christians also will "rise," but none of us is foolish enough to think we can accomplish this without God the Father keeping his promise to raise us. Jesus also counted on the Father's promise.

    The Bible says "God the Father" raised Jesus. That's what I also say. On the other hand, you prefer not to believe what the Bible clearly says many times.

  • Hellrider
    Hellrider

    Fjtoth:

    Hellrider,

    I'm sorry, but I could hardly keep from laughing as I read this! You're a riot as you ;go through all kinds of acrobatic contortions with words to explain

    Ridicule is usually the last line of defense.

    To me it's very simple: Jesus said he would raise "this temple." He said the temple was his "body." There certainly was something metaphorical about that, because his listeners were not thinking of his body.

    I explained that allready. This is explained to the reader, and that is what matters, not what the bystanders or apostles understood or didn`t understand. The raising of the "temple/body" in three days, is meant to tell us that Jesus is very powerful, which is no big epiphany, and this is evident for the reader. But the issue we are discussing, is the I in that statement. And there is nothing metaphorical about that I, as I showed you by comparing the statement with other statements in the NT. The metaphors in the NT-texts are not hard to spot, they pretty much jump out of the text, right at you.

  • fjtoth
    fjtoth

    Hellrider,

    It's strange that you haven't pointed out the metaphor in Galatians 1:1. Apparently you see a metaphor there because you can't seem to accept it at face value. Is there a reason why you keep ignoring that verse? You say "God the Son" raised Jesus without any help from his God and Father, but the Bible clearly states "God the Father" did it. Who should we believe, you or the Bible?

  • Hellrider
    Hellrider

    No, I admit I can`t really explain Galatians 1:1 in light of trinitarian doctrine. By the way, I have never said that ""God the Son raised Jesus without any help from his God and Father". The Bible clearly teaches that the authority to do this, was given to Jesus by his Father in heaven. I can try to give an explanation, but I doubt you will give it any credit: When Paul writes "Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead" (by the way, why does he write "God the Father", unless he also believed that there was a "God the Son"?), his intentions are not to say anything about doctrine, but to place the reader in a state of awe: This was written at a time when christianity was in a state of flux. Were the Galatians on the verge of turning away from Pauls leadership? That could definitely be the case. If Paul had just written that he was sent by Jesus Christ (who raised himself from the dead), then this wouldn`t necessarily have had the same effect on the readers, this, at a time when christianity was still in its cradle, and none of the christians were able to agree upon what exactly Jesus was! Was he God? Man? God-man? An angel? What if there were certain members of the Galatian community that believed he was just a man. A Messiah, but not sendt directly from the heavens? Pauls point here is to emphasise the connection between God the father and Jesus Christ . Yes, he is Paul, and he has authority, given to him directly by God in heaven (an extremely powerful statement to the reader of the day) via the ressurected Son. His point is to emphasise his own God-given authority, his status as an Apostle, and his Christ-centered message. The words "Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead" is an anti-thesis placing the risen Christ on the side of God, and this risen Lord had directly commisioned Paul. To challenge Paul, would be to challenge the Lord that had commisioned him. And not just that, it would to also challenge God himself!

    I doubt that this will impress you much, though, but this is how I would explain it. People who view the Bible as Gods word (each and every word that is in it), will never admit that there is historical development within the Bible itself, a historical development that makes the interpretation-work very, very difficult. I can accept that some people can`t swallow that. But it also sets us worlds apart, with no common ground, and that makes the discussion very difficult. Some christians can accept this continous development thruout the Bible, though, and still believe. I have to say, I admire them more.

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Frank tuned out years ago. He's simply not interested in listening. All he wants is complete capitulation. He's switched off of even considering the idea that a text can say Jesus did something and God did something and both texts being reconcilable in Jesus being God (at least in some sense), that he will argue until he's blue in the face twisting every conceivable point.

    Next come the anti-trinitarian pictures...

  • fjtoth
    fjtoth
    No, I admit I can`t really explain Galatians 1:1 in light of trinitarian doctrine.
    I doubt that this will impress you much, though, but this is how I would explain it.

    Hellrider,

    I say this sincerely, not sarcastically: You are correct. You can't really explain Galatians 1:1, and you seemed to go round in circles as you tried to explain it to my satisfaction. So, again, you are correct: I am not impressed.

    There is nothing to explain when we take the Scriptures for what they say, unless there is evidence within the context of something like a metaphor or hyperbole. There is none of such in the 22 verses that claim God the Father resurrected Jesus, but you yourself admitted that there is "an essence of metaphor" in John 2:19.

  • Hellrider
    Hellrider

    Fjoth:

    you yourself admitted that there is "an essence of metaphor" in John 2:19.

    You have misread me. No, there is no essence of a metaphor in John 2:19 in the text given to the reader! There was a very clear and strong metaphor in what Jesus said to the jews present, that they did not understand, but that is irrelevant to the passage as whole not being a metaphor, as the lack of understanding (on behalf of the jews hearing Jesus say this) is explained in the verse to the reader! If you are unable to understand that, then that is not my problem. Here, have a closer look at the passage, and try again.

    (John 2:18-22) 18 Therefore, in answer, the Jews said to him: "What sign have you to show us, since you are doing these things?" 19 In answer Jesus said to them: "Break down this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." 20 Therefore the Jews said: "This temple was built in forty-six years, and will you raise it up in three days?" 21 But he was talking about the temple of his body. 22 When, though, he was raised up from the dead, his disciples called to mind that he used to say this; and they believed the Scripture and the saying that Jesus said.

    You accuse me of not answering you properly, but you still haven`t come up with a satisfactory explanation of the I-will-raise-it-up, statement, as it is clear here that there is nothng in this passage that indicates that Jesus is here speaking as an agent of God (by the way, in most of the places where this occurs, it is explained to the reader, or it becomes evident in some other way). And you have made no attempt of explaining John 10:17-18

    "Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father."

    ...either. Who took his life back here? Was it the Father or the Son?

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    slimboyfat....Well, the main issue with the text of course is that it was interpolated by Pseudo-Ignatius in the third or fourth century but the interpolations are clearly identified by the many witnesses of the shorter recension attested in Greek, Latin, Syriac, Armenian, Arabic, and Coptic. In particular, the earliest witness of the shorter recension, a Greek papyrus specifically of Smyrnaeans, confirms Lightfoot's earlier analysis. In the case of anestésen heauton in Smyrnaeans 2:1, there is no textual variation between the longer and shorter recensions here. I mention Ignatius because his work shows an affinity with Johannine thought and this may constitute one point of contact.

    Leolaia says that the idea of the body dissolving and being replaced is a modern theory of "re-creation" that bears no relation to what Jews at the time believed. This is a popular accusation made against the Witnesses' view of resurrection, but I am not sure that it holds in view of the following description by Paul.

    The reference to the body being "destroyed" in 2 Corinthians 5 is parallel to the reference to the body being "corruptible" and "perishable" in 1 Corinthians 15, and the reference to putting on the dwelling from heaven pertains to Paul's description of the resurrection body as heavenly and glorious like other heavenly bodies, a spiritual rather than a physical body. The corruptible body is sown in the ground like a seed (1 Corinthians 15:26-28), and then "God gives it the sort of body that he has chosen" (v. 28), i.e. it is "changed" into imperishability (v. 52), a transformation that Paul also mentions in Philippians 3:21 ("he will transform these wretched bodies of ours into the form of his glorious body"). Note that Paul says that God gives the body another body in v. 38, just as he says that "corruption must clothe itself with incorruption and the mortal with immortality" (v. 53-54), and that it is better for God "to put the second garment over it" rather than "stripping off" our mortal body (2 Corinthians 5:4). This again establishes continuity between the two. What Paul does not care much for is the intermediate state of being "naked" in the time between death and resurrection, a time when the body sees corruption and before one can have the new garment of heaven (v. 2-3), but at least he will be "with the Lord" when he becomes exiled "from the body" (v. 8-9), and that is very desirable for him. Note also the use of Platonic terms here (body as a "tent" and being bodiless as a state of "nakedness"), which implies the survival of some internal essence after death -- a view explicitly denied by the Society and its pseudo-resurrection teaching.

    Hellrider....Everyone is certainly justified in pointing out that throughout most of the NT and especially in the Pauline letters, Jesus is depicted as raised by God. This was the dominant view and it reflects Paul's view of Christ as subject to God (cf. 1 Corinthians 11:3, 15:28) and glorified by God through his humility (cf. Romans 1:4, Philippians 2:6-11). But this does not mean that the author of John had the same christological view and talked about Jesus' resurrection in the same way. We already know that Johannine theology is distinctive in many ways and that the christological debates of the second century drew on the theological diversity of the first century. For instance, the author of John depicts the Son and the Father as more on a level plane than Paul ever did (e.g. John 1:1, which suggests that the Son is everything that God is, 5:19 which says that "whatever the Father does the Son does also," 5:22 which says that "the Father judges no one for he was entrusted all judgment to the Son," 5:26 which says that the Son is the "source of life" just as the Father is the source of life, 10:30 which says that "the Father and I are one," 10:38 which says that "the Father is in me and I am in the Father," 14:7 which says that "if you know me you know my Father," 14:11 which says that "I am in the Father and the Father is in me," etc.). Thus in John Jesus has just as much power and authority to bring life and to resurrect as the Father, and whatever the Father does he does as well, so it is not hard to understand that in the Johannine view the Resurrection through the power of both the Son and the Father. We know that the idea in John 2:19-22 is not unique in the gospel as well:

    John 2:19-22: "Jesus answered, 'Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up'. ... But he was speaking of the temple that was his body, and when Jesus rose from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this".
    John 10:17-18: "The Father loves me, because I lay down my life in order to take it up again. No one takes it from me; I lay it down of my own free will, and just as it is within my power to lay it down, so it is also in my power to take it up again".

    Another text that belongs to the wider Johannine branch of Christianity, the Odes of Solomon, gives another interesting example. Jesus declares that "He who knew me and exalted me is the Most High in all his perfection and he glorified me by his kindness" (17:7-8), and yet he describes his liberation from Hades in the following way: "I opened the doors which were closed and I shattered the bars of iron for my own irons had grown hot and melted before me and nothing appeared closed to me, because I was the opening of everything, I went toward all my bondsmen in order to loose them ... and I gave my knowledge generously and my resurrection through my love" (17:9-13). The joint agency is also mentioned in ch. 22: "He who caused me to descend from on high and to ascend from the regions below ... he who gave me authority over chains so that I might loosen them, he who overthrew by my hands the dragon with seven heads" (22:1-5).

  • fjtoth
    fjtoth
    you still haven`t come up with a satisfactory explanation of the I-will-raise-it-up,

    Hellrider,

    You know very well that the above statement is not true. Jesus said "I will raise it up" simply because he had authority from God to say that.

    Your reasoning is mind-numbing. You are so obsessed with the Trinity that you appear blind to what the Bible actually says. Twenty-two verses say God the Father raised Jesus. You are so preoccupied with a statement that has a metaphor in its context that you just can't accept the very clear and easy-to-understand passages that far outnumber that one statement, passages that have no metaphors in their context.

    Trying to reason with you seems like a hopeless cause, but I'm willing to continue as long as you feel you have to go on with this obsession you have.

    As I see it, whether one is trinitarian or non-trinitarian it should be so easy to accept the fact that the Bible teaches Jesus was raised by God the Father. I'm defending neither the trinitarian cause nor the non-trinitarian one. All I'm pleading for is a humble recognition of a very simple truth that is accepted by many trinitarians, whether you do or not, as well as by many non-trinitarians.

    Here's one example among many that could be cited:

    • "Recall [John] 2:19 where Jesus said: 'And in three days I will raise it up.' He did not mean that he will raise himself from the dead independently of the Father as the active agent (Rom. 8:11)."- A. T. Robertson in Word Pictures in the New Testament: (New York, 1932), Vol. V, p. 183.
  • fjtoth
    fjtoth
    "Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father."

    Scholars tell us that the exact translation of exousia, the word for "power" as used here is not easy. It is doubtful whether anything in English is the full equivalent of this Greek term. It has been rendered "authority," "choice," "commission," "freedom," "influence," "liberty," "permission," "power," and "right". If the meaning is close to "permission" or "authority," we can picture the Father raising the Son, just as the Scriptures state, and the Son taking back his own life that the Father restored to him.

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