What happened between Jesus death & the gospels being written?

by yaddayadda 52 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    What seems strange to me about this whole affair is that, according to various scholars, the dead sea scrolls proved that the book of Isaiah had hardly changed at all in about 1,000 years of writing

    This is a bit of an unequal comparison. Isaiah actually had a rather complex early history, with quite large accretions (e.g. Deutero-Isaiah, Trito-Isaiah, other interpolations) which can be demonstrated through literary analysis. But the text reached a fairly stable state within a century or two (i.e. in the fifth century BC), and the Great Isaiah Scroll (1QIsa) dates only as far back as 100 BC. That the MT exhibits minor deviations 1,000 years later attests to the fairly subsequent stable nature of the text, but does not shed light on the book's early literary history. Other books in the Dead Sea Scrolls, such as 1-2 Samuel and Jeremiah, show major deviations from the MT (this fact is less often mentioned). But in the case of the gospels, we're talking about the early literary history where there was much redaction. This is analoguous to the early redaction of Isaiah (i.e. from the seventh century-fifth century BC). The gospels by and large had a more stable textual history centuries later (tho this is relative since there was still much textual variation).

    And it seems that the other synoptic gospels borrowed heavily from Mark.

    I think as much as 80% of Mark is in Matthew.

    It just seems just as much an article of faith to brand the entire gospel accounts as complete mythological fictions than to accept that much of them may indeed be true.

    Each matter should be investigated on a case by case basis. I would not say "entire gospel accounts" are "mythological fictions". But if you look at how the stories were composed and especially how they are derived through haggadaic reuse of OT texts (a modern reader may well anachronistically call it plagiarism), just like scores of other haggadaic stories were composed at that time, one has to come to a judgment of how much in the gospels pertains to historical memory and how much derives from OT texts reinterpreted and recycled in new ways. And any value judgments one makes must take into account the lack of the modern distinction between fiction and "history" in ancient writings, the ancient perception of fiction, and the use of fiction by Jesus himself to give moral teaching (via parables). How much are these stories to be regarded as parables with moral lessons (with Jesus as the primary character), tho they are not historically accurate? JD Crossan's distiction between mode and meaning is especially pertinent here. Regardless of what mode the story is in, what is its meaning for us?

    Is it not the case also that the early church fathers going back to the second and third centuries quote extensively from the gospels as we read them today?

    Some do, some don't. Many of the early ones don't use the gospels per se but gospel traditions floating around in oral tradition that varied in literary form. So Ignatius, for instance, tells a story of a christophany to the apostles that is similar to what is found in Luke and John, but is clearly independent of them. And the author of 2 Clement takes independent sayings that have different narrative contexts in the synoptic gospels and uses them to construct a new dialogue between Jesus and Peter. Papias had other traditions that he drew from oral tradition that are not in the gospels. In fact, he said he preferred the living words attributed to Jesus in oral tradition than the written words of the gospels. In one instance, he described a conversation between Jesus and the apostles (including Judas) that is clearly derivative of the Jewish apocalypse of 2 Baruch, putting the words into the mouth of Jesus. Later writers clearly used our four gospels. But some did not use our gospels per se but harmonies of them, in which the gospels would be freely stitched together and edited into a single work. Justin Martyr used a harmony, and Tatian borrowed it to form the basis of the Diatessaron.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete



    What seems strange to me about this whole affair is that, according to various scholars, the dead sea scrolls proved that the book of Isaiah had hardly changed at all in about 1,000 years of writing, and persons like Sir Frederick Kenyon and other eminent intellectuals conclusively state that the NT has not materially changed much in many hundreds of years


    Kenyon is often quoted by apologists because of his overstating the evidence in one or two excerpts of his books. Here is a block from his 1912 work with a larger context:

    "In no other case is the interval of time between the composition of the book and the date of the earliest extant manuscripts so short as in that of the New Testament. The books of the New Testament were written in the latter part of the first century; the earliest extant manuscripts (trifling scraps excepted) are of the fourth century - say, from 250 to 300 years later. This may sound a considerable interval, but it is nothing to that which parts most of the great classical authors from their earliest manuscripts.







    He both disregards the overwhelming evidence of late tampering and then makes an assumtion quite unwarranted. First of all, I know of noone willing to die for the accuracy of Sophocles, secondly the transmission history of the works is quite different form the NT.

    (I've read critiques on Ehrman's latest book. He shows that although there has been a bit of redaction and revisionism, it is not as nearly as much or as significant as he is making out),

    That depends upon your definition of significant doesn't it. For someone convinced he has a word for word accurate message from God any even small change of nouns or verb tenses would be significant.

    yet the sceptics are saying that pretty much the entire gospels accounts are just myths, complete fictions, that they somehow magically appeared in a relatively short space of time in a culture where great care was taken by scribes to accurately transmit holy writings, where there was a strong tradition of systematic oral memorisation techniques, amongst a people who were just about the last people on earth to believe myths and legends that all their pagan neighbours believed.

    Nothing magical about it. However the stories began they began an an environment teaming with embellished sensational stories of OT holymen and contemporary historical figures. The Gospels are quite typical of the time. And as far as transmission goes, the stories did not have status as "holy writings" for centuries, you are right that once the texts aquired this status altering them was more difficult. This is why we can recognize copies from the 4th century as the Gospels we have today. I would never repeat your last sentence above, its just too silly. This is the culture that included within its legends talking donkeys and snakes, 4 headed 6 winged monsters in heaven, and uncritically believed that demons were extracted from the nose by using magic incantations from Solomon and a cow gave birth to a sheep as a sign. (from Josephus). Myths were the teaching of the day. You did not teach history or morality without them. I would highly recommend getting familiar with the Jewish literature in the intertesmental period, its a great eye opener to the popularity of story telling using OT names and places as settings. Testament of Job, Testament of Joseph, Greek Esther, Judith, Tobit, etc to name a few examples of popular stories written in similar style as the Gospels. There was no difference between the Jewish mind and that of nonJewish contemporaries. It might help to recognize that however these works were accepted the authors had no intent to deceive when adding to the OT legends. They were doing what pious men did, keeping the stories alive through reinterpretation.

    I am asked to believe this despite the fact that for long streches of many centuries it is clear that the scriptures did not materially change. It just seems just as much an article of faith to brand the entire gospel accounts as complete mythological fictions than to accept that much of them may indeed be true.

    Noone is asking you to believe what you mind already suspects. What you are being told by Bible inerranists to believe is that your mind can't be trusted.

    Is it not the case also that the early church fathers going back to the second and third centuries quote extensively from the gospels as we read them today? Or have I got that wrong?

    You got that wrong. There are a very few quotations of any sort from the 2nd century and those few cannot be matched with any Gospel as we read it today. Its not much better a hundred years later. The books simply did not have the canonical status in any quarter granted them yet. There most definately was no conformance of text. The Gospels were not supposed to circulate together, they were products of different communities and times. There was no reason an early Roman Christian would want a copy of Matthew or G. of the Hebrews, likewise a Jewish Christian community would not be seen reading Luke or John. It wasn't until the Catholic church (or proto catholic) enforced an orthodoxy that these were brought together and harmonized here and there. I think it was Irenaeus who said that 4 were chosen among the dozens in use because of the sacred symbolism of 4. His view was not popular. No doubt in time the 3 Synoptics were chosen because they had become most widely distributed and had the fewest obvious theological differences due to their pedigree. John was included through the influence of certain Gnostic leaning church Fathers and its theological usefulness in establishing the divinity of Jesus.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Whether you read critical or conservative Bible scholarship, it is good to keep in mind the definitions and areas of validity of the different disciplines it includes (even though their separation is always arbitrary and they do overlap a lot in practice).

    Textual criticism (Ehrman's primary discipline) is about how a finished work is transmitted through copy and translation.

    Literary criticism is about how the text was made up in the first place (identifying written and oral sources, redactional seams, rewriting and expansions within the work itself).

    Exegesis is about the meaning of a definite state of the text and depends on which state you choose to focus on -- whether the finished work, earlier source material or a specific later version down the lines of text transmission. It is about what a specific "author" meant to say with whatever sources he used.

    Historical reconstruction (whether of Jesus or early Christianity) is still a step further. It depends a lot on the results of the former disciplines and, notably, on the assessment of the literary genre -- e.g., story or history? A 100 % correct edition of Alice in Wonderland wouldn't make it a true history because it is not what it was meant to be in the first place.

    As I said in my previous post, there is a lot of traditional material in the NT, which cannot be explained simply by literary creation or development, and constitutes data for the historical reconstruction of early Christianity(ies). The question of what can and needs be traced further back to a historical Jesus is subsidiary to this reconstruction.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    yaddayadda, I have an idea to illustrate some of what has been stated here. You pick an episode from the Synoptics (Matt, Mark,Luke) , any one you like (and start a thread asking the probable literary sources and texual issues surrounding that episode. I'll try to respond and I'm sure if they have the time Narkissos and Leolaia will complete the picture. Let's try it.

  • Terry
    Terry

    Narkisos, as always, is the most cogent among us!

  • Joe Grundy
    Joe Grundy

    Sorry to but in here again amongst the scholars and academics (and thanks, everyone, I am learning a great deal here!),but back to the historical 'what happened' question -

    I live in Cyprus. Paul and Barnabas (who was a Cypriot) came here in about 45 AD and allegedly converted the proconsul Sergius Paulus. Cyprus thus became apparently the first place under a christian ruler. But at the same time, worship of the previous gods continued, especially that of Aphrodite (indeed, many church festivals here today are based on the Aphrodite cult. Kataklysmos is a good example. Held by the church to be a commemoration of the Flood, it's actually a celebration of the birth of Aphrodite from the sea).

    The Jewish rebellion of 116AD hit hard on the island (there was only a small Roman garrison) and virtually the entire gentile population of Salamis (Barnabas' home town) was killed. When the rebellion was put down, all Jews were expelled from the island.

    But christianity developed only slowly, alongside other religions. Most of the mosaic floors at Paphos (a short walk from where I live) which celebrate the ancient gods were completed in the late 3rd/early 4th centuries AD - i.e. only a very few years before Constantine designated christianity as the 'preferred religion'. Some of the catacombs were used in turn by pagans, jews and christians.

    So there never was an 'overnight transition' as I had innocently once believed. Christianity developed alongside other religions and there was (I suspect) far more of an interchange between them than 'fundamentalists' might realise or suspect.

  • Terry
    Terry

    When battle lines are drawn over the inspiration of scripture it all goes to black and white.

    Are there some sane points we all can agree upon?

    1.The bible cannot be inerrant. This is the most easily proved.

    2.There were copyist changes which dramatically affect doctrinal matters.

    3.Doctrines derived from cheating the text are unwarranted.

    If we can all nod yes on the above, then; can we make the next step?

    4.If a supernatural power has been used to transmit data which can be demonstrated (in parts) to be corrupted, is it then ILLOGICAL to question the integrity of the argument which states: GOD HAS THE POWER TO PRESERVE THE TEXT....? Why? Because, apparently, having the power to preserve and ACTUALLY DOING IT are two different issues.

    5.Arguments over doctrine always devolve down to proof texts. Without 100% confidence in the purity of transmission of Divine intent we are on ludicrously shaky ground declaring ORTHODOXY!

    6.Since it is easily demonstrated the text has been fudged and that God obviously ALLOWED the cheating to take place it is not an act of impious immorality to suggest pure worship might (from God's standpoint) have little or nothing to do with the Bible in our modern times.

    THE BOOK of the law was of concern to Jews because of the covenant they declared existed between them and God alone. Without a correct written record their very ritual salavation was put in disarray.

    However, Christians were a TRANSFORMATION of a covenant people (ethnically and ritually) into something peculiar. Christianity rode into town on the auspices of an Ancient religion and declared itself MORE IMPORTANT than that Ancient religion by an effort to demonstrate (through Paul's explanations) an intention on the part of God in the text itself to use Jews as shadow puppets.

    The Shadow Puppetry of historical happenings was all a template, declared Paul. Christianity is the REAL DEAL.

    The Bible and the new orthodoxies directly result from PAUL, not Jesus.

    Any arguments against Judaism and for Christianity are Paul's.

    Here is the hinge of history.

    1.People convinced by Paul set to work skimming the Old Testament for ways to prop up Jesus as THE Messiah.

    2.The redactions of Old Testament "prophecy" into the day to day antics of Jesus are the work of deliberate intention. This is passed off as eyewitness accounts of a miracle worker who fulfills the Old Testament. Why? To get rid of the PRIMACY of the natural JEW.

    Unless and untill we agree on this we are writing our opinion in the water with our finger.

    The New Testament is the weapon of choice if you want to eradicate the primacy of Judaism.

    It is a hijacking.

    Arguments over words and phrases used by characters surrounding Jesus, around events, and connected to singular pronouncements are really beside the above point.

    A good case can be made that the god of the Jews never intended to create a NEW RELIGION on the bones of Judaism. Who Jesus was (or wasn't) is the preoccupation of non-Jews mainly following the mindset of Paul.

    The NEW TESTAMENT is either:

    1.An actual record of God's actual dealing with mankind through the actual historical Jesus

    or

    2.The invention of Paul and those who believed him who were willing to transform a story and events into a political/religious tool for the purpose of supplanting the tendency of natural Jews to get themselves killed by opposing Rome.

    The nationalistic and fanatical Jews ended up getting themselves destroyed anyway. There wasn't much left to oppose Paul.

    Christianity is probably more the result "no place left to go" for straggling/struggling Jews and neophyte pagans who needed a Prince of Peace in a world of armies and death.

    Christianity shares with its text the nature of a DEFAULT RELIGION.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    The NEW TESTAMENT is either: 1.An actual record of God's actual dealing with mankind through the actual historical Jesus

    or

    2.The invention of Paul and those who believed him who were willing to transform a story and events into a political/religious tool for the purpose of supplanting the tendency of natural Jews to get themselves killed by opposing Rome.

    This is a false dilemma that oversimplifies the diversity and breadth of early Christianity (as represented in the NT). You can find a Christianity that is markedly non-Pauline, even anti-Pauline to an extent (e.g. Matthew) and you can find a Christianity that is vehemently anti-Rome (e.g. Revelation). Between its pages, you can find many different ideas on what constitutes salvation (and what one is saved from), on who Jesus is supposed to be, what destinies lie in the future, etc. And as already pointed out by Narkissos, there was also a Christ movement before Paul got involved (as Paul himself admitted); Paul's version of Christianity was one flavor out of many. While he played a major role in establishing Gentile churches in the West and developing theological ideas, he had to contend with other forms of Christian faith that already existed alongside of him. Neither was there a stereotypical nationalistic "Judaism" that in toto was in conflict with Rome and which was "hijacked" by Paul and the early Christians.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    I second PP's suggestion. Sounds like fun.

  • skeptic2
    skeptic2

    6.Since it is easily demonstrated the text has been fudged and that God obviously ALLOWED the cheating to take place it is not an act of impious immorality to suggest pure worship might (from God's standpoint) have little or nothing to do with the Bible in our modern times.

    If I were a theist, that's exactly the way I'd see it!

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