14 Nissan

strypes

I have a question for those of you who are knowledgeable of JWS doctrines and practices.

Would some one please explain to me the logic behind "passing the cup" and why only the 8000 who claim to be part of the 144000 can partake.

Leolaia

Would some one please explain to me the logic behind "passing the cup" and why only the 8000 who claim to be part of the 144000 can partake.

Because Rutherford said so.

That's basically it.

If one steps back and considers the Christian "sacraments" as a whole, it is all the more astounding that baptism is required from people who are then denied the Eucharist. Any argument against a so-called "non-anointed" partaking of the Memorial should logically bar him/her from baptism too, as all the NT texts suggest that all baptised Christians share in the Eucharist. Afaik the WT has never clearly addressed this problem.

As a side note, it is not really the WT's will that still 8000 persons or so partake. By WT doctrine (end of the "heavenly call" by 1935) this number should have been reduced to a few dozens now. The WT has regularly implied that most current partakers are "mistaken". Still, they can't submit partaking to previous organisational approbation because they theoretically hold that Jehovah can choose whomever he wants to replace a "fallen anointed". They heavily suggest that this should be a long-time faithful JW but they have not made it a rule so far.

serendipity

Hi strypes and welcome!

strypes

Please?

Leolaia

There is no logic at all behind the belief that most JWs today are part of a "great crowd" who are not part of the New Covenant. The notion that in 1935 the general calling closed and a new gathering began is not based on the Bible. It actually used to have a slim biblical basis way back in the 1930s and 1940s, when Rutherford taught through typological interpretation that Elijah symbolized the work carried out under Pastor Russell and Elisha symbolized the work carried out in Rutherford's day to bear witness to the Kingdom and vindicate Jehovah's name at that time as a preparation before Armageddon...and King Jehu was interpreted as symbolic Jesus Christ who leads his organization to vindicate Jehovah's name, and his chariot represented God's organization, and Jehonadab who was invited to climb into his chariot represents .... drum roll please ... a new body of Christians added to the organization who are not spiritual Israelites. But all of this was eisegetical and largely came from Rutherford's imagination.

The real purpose behind this reasoning is to explain how there was such a huge increase in the JWs in the 1930s. Rutherford had already explained that the droves who left in the late 1920s (due to the failure of 1925 and Rutherford's altering of almost every belief the Bible Students had from Russell's time) was evidence that the body of Christ on earth would continue to decrease and decrease as a Remnant until Armageddon. But in the 1930s, during the Great Depression, there was a sudden new increase. In order to accommodate them into his theories about God's organization, he made them into a new Jehonadab class in the early 1930s and then in 1935 identified them with the "great crowd" of Revelation....thereby dispatching the rest of humanity to ugly deaths in Armageddon.

Now much of this Rutherfordian doctrine has disappeared like a scaffolding, leaving behind the present-day belief about the closing of the door of the "little flock" in 1935, without much of any attempt to ground this teaching biblically.

Leolaia

I should add that the Society today still pays lip service to the Jehu antitype, but it no longer has the focal importance it had in the 1930s:

***

w05 8/1 p. 11 Highlights From the Book of Second Kings ***

Just as Jehonadab wholeheartedly accepted Jehu’s invitation to get up into the chariot with him, the "great crowd" willingly support Jesus Christ, the modern-day Jehu, and his anointed followers.—Revelation 7:9.

***

km 12/00 p. 6 Theocratic Ministry School Review ***

As Jehonadab’s heart was with King Jehu, the great crowd today wholeheartedly acknowledge and cooperate with the Greater Jehu, Jesus Christ, represented on earth by anointed Christians. (2 Ki. 10:15, 16)

Narkissos

But in the 1930s, during the Great Depression, there was a sudden new increase. In order to accommodate them into his theories about God's organization, he made them into a new Jehonadab class in the early 1930s and then in 1935 identified them with the "great crowd" of Revelation....thereby dispatching the rest of humanity to ugly deaths in Armageddon.

I would suggest that, even more than solving a consistency problem, the purpose (and effect) of the new doctrine was to secure the power in the growing WT organisation into the hands of Rutherford and his old guard. By making the overwhelming majority of current and future newcomers a secondary class, out of the new covenant, with no direct relationship with Christ through the anointing of the Holy Spirit, he denied the legitimacy of any criticism, suggestion or power struggle on their part. Their salvation depended on their submission, service and loyalty, period. They had no right, no say in the doctrinal and practical policies of the "faithful and discreet slave". Actually they were the slaves, and the so-called "slave" had become the master.

strypes

Maybe it would help if I told ya'll where I am coming from a bit. Because I already know all about the True cup of redemption and the significance of the third cup (the one consumed AFTER the meal) in a passover sader.

I am a bornagin, In love with Jesus, filled with the Holy Spirit, child of God. I have never been a Jehovah's Witness but I have a dear friend whose parents are actively "elders". He (his name is Mark) was very active from his childhood until he was 24 years old when his life circumstances went to hell so to speak and he left the organization for a life of sin. (and misery). When I met him online in a christian chat room Janurary of last year (2005) he was living with a married woman ( not married to him) and had been out of the organization for eight years.

Through his friendship with me It SPARKED a renewal of his deep love for God and he prayed salvation prayer with me.

But then... hateful "Christians" on that site "proved" everything his parents had already instilled in him to be true of Apostates.

After months of mental torment, he returned to his parents hometown (Janurary this year) and is now back under them and active at the kingdom hall there.(in Ireland) His father has been dianosed with colon cancer and he and I rarely talk on msn. (about once every month or so) and then only briefly.

my story trying to understand him is way to long to tell in a short thread, But I have researched many of the doctrines and have prayed for guidence by the Holy Spirit (The extent God went to to PROVE to me that Jesus died on a cross is an amazing story in and of itself) .Mark wont let me tell him of my expierence. He ask me to have an open mind and I do and have listened and then put them to the test of the word but when I find the answers to Mark's challanges, He refuses to listen to me.

anyway Mark contacted me and ask me to go to the memorial service on 14 nissan ... he has never ask much of me so I went. That week I also participated in "communion" with some gopher friends ( before a Third Day Concert on Good Friday) and that saturday again with some messianic jewish friends at their passover sader.

Since then I have tried to get understanding of "why" they "pass the cup" I have ask mark but he wont answer me with anything other than "they believe their destination is earth" and that does not answer my question.

So...

What I am asking of you guys is to explain to me in simplistic terms ( so i can understand) Why do they pass the cup? I don't need desertations of the error of it ( for i fully understand the signifance ot the third cup of passover) What I want to know is "what exactly is it that Mark (as a Jehovah's Witness) belives?"

Jehovah's Witnesses wont answer me because I am seen as an apostate, Christians havent a clue.So I beg of you who were once Jehovah's witness and are now born again to please tell me. So I can be ready when my friend contacts me again so he wont "pass" on the cup of redemption.

Narkissos

OK, I'll switch to JW mode:

JWs believe that the partakers of the Lord's meal are the heirs of the Kingdom, included in that Kingdom covenant (cf. Luke 22:29f).

They believe the Kingdom to be a heavenly government of (literally) 144,000 people (cf. Revelation 7; 14) who will rule as kings with Jesus over earthly subjects.

They believe that the Kingdom call is over and that the vast majority of their members are due to become, not members of the heavenly Kingdom, but earthly subjects.

So the vast majority of JWs do not partake of the Lord's meal.

Hope it helps.

14 Nissan

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