Arminianism

by TheListener 19 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • TheListener
    TheListener

    I read about pelagianism on wikipedia.

    From my understanding it teaches that there is no original sin. Therefore mankind can come directly to God and work out their salvation.

    As a witness I didn't believe in "original sin" so to speak but I believed that Adam and Eve (Adam really) lost the ability for themselves and all of us to approach God directly and we had to wait for Jesus and his ransom sacrifice to buy us back from sin.

    However, now that I think about it, it does seem odd that pre-Jesus people could be friends of God if the original sin took away that possibility. It seems like another contradiction. They believe in original Adamic sin but also believe that some prior to Jesus were able to be friends of God without an intermediary.

    As usual I'm confused.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    TL,

    There is a huge difference between foreknowledge, prescience, foresight, etc. in the Pelagian, semi-Pelagian and Arminian (and JW) soteriologies and predestination in the Augustinian-Calvinist tradition. The former does not imply causality, while the latter does. In the former God only knows what individuals will do by their own free will; in the latter he himself causes the individual's response.

    I'd just highlight your quotation:

    God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world was based upon His foreseeing that they would respond to His call. He selected only those whom He knew would of themselves freely believe the gospel. Election therefore was determined by or conditioned upon what man would do. The faith which God foresaw and upon which He based His choice was not given to the sinner by God (it was not created by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit) but resulted solely from man's will. It was left entirely up to man as to who would believe and therefore as to who would be elected unto salvation. God chose those whom He knew would, of their own free will, choose Christ. Thus the sinner's choice of Christ, not God's choice of the sinner, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

    This is exactly what JWs believe as to the process of salvation for both of their "classes". In both cases everything rests on the free will of the individual and his undetermined (even if foreseen) response to the Gospel.

    As to your other question, I can't think of anything really comparable to the current (Rutherfordian) "two-classes" / "two-hopes" WT soteriology. However you must consider its evolution from Russell's teachings. To Russell, the "second class" was not made up of Christians in the present age, but of non-Christians who would be resurrected in the millenium. Russell's idea was one answer among many to the age-old question, are all non-Christians lost? Many responses have been offered to this question throughout Christian history, from the ultra-strict view of Cyprian, "no salvation out of the church" to the universalistic view of Origen, his apocatastasis theory in which all, even the devil, would eventually be saved. Intermediate views involve a final judgement of people's deeds by their own conscience, which is revealed as an relationship to Christ although the individuals did not know it as such (so, differently, Matthew 25 and Romans 2). So the belief in Christ as the unique way of salvation can be reconciled with salvation of non-Christians -- only they didn't know they were Christians (cf. Karl Rahner's concept of "anonymous Christians"). The originality of Russell's answer is to posit a time (the millenium) when former non-Christians can consciously choose salvation through Christ, instead of the classical view of resurrection and judgement based exclusively on people's deeds prior to their death. Such a theory may have been found in other Christian (adventist?) groups, I'm not sure about that. But this is a completely different thing which Rutherford made up with his doctrine of two classes of Christians in the present age. This theory does not serve a wider salvation, only the practical submission of one class to another.

  • TheListener
    TheListener

    I can't thank you enough Narkissos for bearing with me (again).

    Let's see if I get this right: In pelegiansim and arminianism God forsees and knows and is prescient that certain individuals will have faith and be justified/sanctified.

    In Augustinianism and Calvinism God CAUSES ones to have faith and become justified/sanctified.

    That is a big difference and I see how the witnesses fall under the category of pelegianism.

    Follow up question. I'm sure that I learned that a major difference between Presbyterians and Methodists is just this point, predestination. Did God forechoose individuals or did he just have knowledge of certain individuals. Presbyterians believe in God forechoosing certain ones and Methodists believe in God foreknowing certain ones would be saved.

    Why does this have to be so hard and why do we have to use such long and difficult words.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    It's getting better...

    Only, I'd leave Pelagianism aside because it is still farther from the Augustinian-Calvinist views than Arminianism, especially on original sin (which is another matter).

    Methodism has grown to be a big mainstream branch of Protestantism, with its own inner splits, so you can hardly presume the views of a Methodist by his/her membership... but originally Methodism was clearly Arminian indeed:

    http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/creeds1.x.xii.html

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    Nark

    This is exactly what JWs believe as to the process of salvation for both of their "classes". In both cases everything rests on the free will of the individual and his undetermined (even if foreseen) response to the Gospel.

    Just to add the difference in what the JWs call the Gospel is huge! Also the Pelagian view being not acceptable (heresy) by most denominations, while the Arminian is seen as an acceptable (orthodox) even if not agreed with by most. Many Arminians would not like the title semi-Pelagian (even though it probably fits) D Dog

  • TheListener
    TheListener

    Narkissos,

    I can see what you mean about setting pelegianism aside. It seems that pelegianism is very narrow in scope. The main (and apparently only?) doctrine being that man can work for his own salvation with God without the need of Christ's ransom sacrifice (which was merely a good example;as adam was a poor example).

    Whereas arminiansim seems to envelop several key doctrines rather than resting on one. It really seems that the witnesses are not alone in being arminians but for the most part all non-calvinist protestant religions fall mostly under arminianism.

    Also, it just seems to me that the witnesses are very very arminianistic (I think I made that word up) and even take arminianism to the extreme; as discussed in an earlier post.

    Little Toe,

    I remember some time ago you said you leaned toward calvinistic thinking. I know you added in some other theological names as well, but, I have a question. What arminian doctrines would a Calvinist most likely not agree with (I know not everyone is the same so generalities would be fine)?

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    TL:Can you see why I was specific about semi-pelagianism, rather then categorising JWs as outright Pelagian? For the purposes of this discussion I agree with Didier that perhaps I was being a little too specific, and that restricting it to the Arminian / Calvinist conflict is probably sufficilent.

    I have many beliefs, but specifically touching biblical theology I continue to state for the record that I am most persuaded that Calvinist doctrine is the most logical application of the many [often conflicting] scriptures. I'm not so bigotted as to believe that I must be correct, however, and enjoy the company of Arminian brethren (and deists and atheists ).

    A Christian (Arminian or Calvinist) isn't required to hold a whole package of beliefs, as are the JWs. They can hold a range of ideas, as shown by the fact that there are four point, five point, and hyper-Calvinists. I would suggest that if we just take the five points of Calvinism (that uses the acronym T.U.L.I.P.) pertaining to salvation, the only point on which JWs actually agree is "Limited Atonement". Calvinists agree that some will never be saved, and would look to the lake of fire (Gehenna) of Revelation for the most persuasive of scriptures supporting this notion.

    Of course the application of this "hell" will also vary amongst Christians, from the Annihilation view of JWs and some Anglicans, through to the literal eternal torment in fire and brimstone, of the Fundamentalists.

    In all other points the JWs and the Calvinists part company.

    I personally find the idea of "Perseverance of the Saint" most comforting, being the idea that once God has adopted you into His family He will not somehow unadopt you if you fall down.

  • *lost*
    *lost*

    bumped

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    Excellent discussion

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    I thought Methodism was an off shoot of the Church of England. People should cite sources. Roughly.

    It is funny when I read similar matters I see no clear doctrines. Ever.

    Timelines help me.

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