Arminianism

by TheListener 19 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  TheListener

  What are the similarities and differences between arminiansim and jw's?

  One key similarity I've found is that in arminianism a certain few are chosen by God for Salvation. Seems similar to the 144,000 doctrine. I know it's not the same, but similar.

  Another similarity would be that Christ's sacrifice was for everyone. Anyone who puts faith in christ's sacrifice has a chance of salvation. Of course, the witnesses have added that you must believe in christ's sacrifice and follow the direction of the F&DS.

  Another similarity is that the individual can resist God's holy spirit. Just as with the witnesses you can resist the holy spirit or inhibit its work in the congregation by your actions and lack of faith.

  Some arminians believe you can lose your salvation if you lose your faith. Some believe you are eternally saved. The witnesses would fall into the camp of possibly losing your faith.

  As far as the differences it seems it is only the extremes that the WTS takes arminianism that makes it seem different.

  Arminianism doesn't believe that works will get you salvation. The WTS advocates that but in actuality most witnesses understand that works are needed to gain salvation. For the arminian the only work necessary by the individual is faith. For the witness that's true but faith causes us to follow every command of the F&DS - thus work is required. I get confused on this. In arminianism you can't do anything to effect your own salvation, but you can lose God's grace by resisting the holy spirit. So what I can't figure out is how you don't resist the holy spirit. Is it by doing works? Is it just simply by believing in Christ's sacrifice?

  Arminians believe in certain select few predestined to be saved and to become sons of God, glorified. The witnesses believe this but take it a step further and actually define the number - 144,000.

  Arminians believe that Jesus sacrifice satisfied God's justice. The WTS takes that a step further and explains in detail how Jesus was the perfect Adam and shows scales to show their equality. Unless I'm wrong, arminianism doesn't state that Jesus life corresponds to Adam's life.

  Do any of you have others?
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  LittleToe

  It's worth comparing Arminianism and Calvinism, for the purposes of this thread.

  IMHO their beliefs are a subset of Arminianism called semi-pelagianism.

  Edited to add: I've assumed you're considering doctrine pertaining to salvation. If you want to take it wider to include their doctrine of God, then you need to add Arianism.
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  Narkissos

  TL,

  I think among the doctrines you ascribe to arminianism the following are wrong:

  in arminianism a certain few are chosen by God for Salvation.

  Arminians believe in certain select few predestined to be saved and to become sons of God, glorified.

  Arminians, imo, believe in indefinite expiation (potentially for all), collective election and predestination (the church is chosen and predestined to salvation, not its individual members), and conditional salvation (only those who choose not to resist the Holy Spirit and become believers will eventually be saved). They disagree on whether one can "lose one's salvation" after becoming a believer.

  Iow, the JW "two-class" system cannot be traced back to arminianism.
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  Deputy Dog

  LT

  IMHO their beliefs are a subset of Arminianism called semi-pelagianism.

  My expireance is, that there is nothing semi about the JWs "Pelagianism", where salvation is concerned.

  From Wikipedia:

  Pelagianism- is the belief that original sin did not taint human nature (which, being created from God, was divine), and that mortal will is still capable of choosing good or evil without Divine aid. Thus, Adam's sin was "to set a bad example" for his progeny, but his actions did not have the other consequences imputed to Original Sin. Pelagianism views the role of Jesus as "setting a good example" for the rest of humanity (thus counteracting Adam's bad example). In short, humanity has full control, and thus full responsibility, for its own salvation in addition to full responsibility for every sin (the latter insisted upon by both proponents and opponents of Pelagianism). According to Pelagian doctrine, since man is no longer in need of any of God's graces beyond the creation of his will [1] the Sacrament of Baptism is devoid of the redemptive quality ascribed to it by orthodox Christians. [2]

  D Dog
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  LittleToe

  It's a bit more complicated than that, DDog, hence my ascribing them to the "semi". The truth is they have such a gawd-awful mixed pot of beliefs it's hard to categoraise them. Needless to say that while they certainly have their own unique blend, there's nothing really all that original about their individual beliefs (other than the specific dates they keep setting themselves).

  They do believe in original sin, and they hold that Jesus wasn't just an example but also a sacrifice for the sins of Adam (more than just an example). Further they still hold that after doing all those lifelong works it's a bit of a crapshoot as to whether or not God will graciously allow them to live
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  M.J.

  arminianism doesn't state that Jesus life corresponds to Adam's life.

  I think that's pretty unique to arians...a whole different matter entirely.
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  Deputy Dog

  LT

  It's a bit more complicated than that,

  Well, I suppose you,re right about that technically.

  They do believe in original sin, and they hold that Jesus wasn't just an example but also a sacrifice for the sins of Adam (more than just an example).

  But, what do they believe about "original sin? It seems to me, they only inherit the earthly (or physical) part of the curse, I don't think I've ever met a JW that knows what (spiritual) death really means, at least where the bible is concerned. The ransom simply buys time with a physical resurection or an other chance to be a slave to the law. Do you think they understand imputation, and that Adams sin killed any ability to save themselves or do they know what it means to be dead spiritually?

  Further they still hold that after doing all those lifelong works it's a bit of a crapshoot as to whether or not God will graciously allow them to live

  Don't they think salvation will be based on those works, and by grace they mean God will (unjustly IMO) grade on a curve. D Dog
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  barry

  Pelagan was a scottish monk who beleived christs example was all that was necessary and the faithfulll should and could follow his example. Pelagans opposers beleived his mind was befuddled by too much porridge.Peleganism is a heracy of christianity
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  TheListener

  Narkissos, you wrote:

  TL,

  I think among the doctrines you ascribe to arminianism the following are wrong:

  in arminianism a certain few are chosen by God for Salvation.

  Arminians believe in certain select few predestined to be saved and to become sons of God, glorified.

  Arminians, imo, believe in indefinite expiation (potentially for all), collective election and predestination (the church is chosen and predestined to salvation, not its individual members), and conditional salvation (only those who choose not to resist the Holy Spirit and become believers will eventually be saved). They disagree on whether one can "lose one's salvation" after becoming a believer.

  Iow, the JW "two-class" system cannot be traced back to arminianism.

  Here is what I found online about that subject from http://www.albatrus.org/english/theology/reformed/table_arminianism_versus_calvinism.htm I am open that I understand this wrongly. I am really trying to understand arminianism and how the witnesses fall under it. But, I will say LTs post about how the witnesses are a hodge podge of various type of theology seems really true. Conditional Election
  God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world was based upon His foreseeing that they would respond to His call. He selected only those whom He knew would of themselves freely believe the gospel. Election therefore was determined by or conditioned upon what man would do. The faith which God foresaw and upon which He based His choice was not given to the sinner by God (it was not created by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit) but resulted solely from man's will. It was left entirely up to man as to who would believe and therefore as to who would be elected unto salvation. God chose those whom He knew would, of their own free will, choose Christ. Thus the sinner's choice of Christ, not God's choice of the sinner, is the ultimate cause of salvation.
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  TheListener

  Narkissos, or anyone really,

  Is there an older theology that teaches the two destinations - heavenly and earthly?

  Do Calvinists and Arminianists believe the earth will be destroyed and all who God selected or selected themselves will be spirit creatures with God?