>This is as it has always been and always will be, this side of glory. Meanwhile (IMHO) you would do well to heed the admonition of our Lord to "judge none lest ye be judged".
You blew the context, LT. We are to judge by clear scripture. Where have I erred in calling her on her own inconsistency? Perhaps you are in the same boat? You look at the same questions that I asked of her and then see if you qualify. BTW, John Gill is pretty good, next to Matthew Henry and C.H. Spurgeon. Did you know that Spurgeon preached the same church as Gill only later?
I have some more englishmen as favorite preachers. Charles Wesley and George Whitefield. It's too bad you Limeys let the country slide right into almost total unbelief with that liberal doctrine, adjustable morals and doctrine that you seem to embrace so much. No more 'salt' and very little 'light'. What does our Lord say in Revelation about the lukewarm church?
Rex
Perfect, Nearly Perfect, and Mostly Perfect....Religion
by jgnat 39 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Shining One
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jgnat
So your foundation, then Sh****ing One, is the great body of Christian intellectuals who have interpreted the scriptures before you. That is so far removed from Christ, I can scarcely take a breath. I notice you have a strong preference for Protestant intellectuals. Are all other Christian intellectuals summarily dismissed? How about St. Francis of Assisi?
No hijack, I just pointed out her own hypocrisy as she regularly points out 'fatal flaws' in her own religion's statement of belief.
- My church does not set itself up as the sole mouthpiece for Jehovah. I can ask questions and openly doubt without being shunned.
- I do not set myself up as the sole mouthpiece for Jehovah. I allow my beliefs to be challenged. I am not hypocritical in my beliefs.
- The JW's set themselves up as the sole mouthpiece for Jehovah. They do not allow their beliefs to be challenged, and shun those who do. They are the hypocrites.
- Where do you sit on this spectrum, Sh***ing One? Can anyone challenge your beliefs without risk of becoming labelled a lukewarm liberal anti-American?
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LittleToe
Rex:
You blew the context, LT. We are to judge by clear scripture. Where have I erred in calling her on her own inconsistency?
On the contrary, we are in no position to judge one another, especially in an online forum such as this.
Perhaps you are in the same boat? You look at the same questions that I asked of her and then see if you qualify.
Piss off!
BTW, John Gill is pretty good, next to Matthew Henry and C.H. Spurgeon. Did you know that Spurgeon preached the same church as Gill only later?
I knew that of Gill. Spurgeon is also pretty high in my estimation. Henry I only use for devotional studies. I wouldn't use him for any decent study as he's too lightweight for my tastes. You need to get some Boston, Edwards and Ryle down your neck.
I have some more englishmen as favorite preachers. Charles Wesley and George Whitefield. It's too bad you Limeys let the country slide right into almost total unbelief with that liberal doctrine, adjustable morals and doctrine that you seem to embrace so much. No more 'salt' and very little 'light'. What does our Lord say in Revelation about the lukewarm church?
I dearly hope you aren't mixing up good solid reformed Scottish theologians with English Anglican "limeys". FWIW we're been exporting out finest across the pond for centuries. All you gave us back was Moody and Finney
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Shining One
Auld Soul,
>If someone is relying on something it IS their foundation. If you are relying on Scripture (as defined by whom?) being accurate and true, then you aren't on the foundation of Christ.
Where does your information on Christ originate? You can't be that dumb so your question is facetious. What does the Lord say about this: John 15:5-7: Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
Abiding in Christ and in His words, all of them, not just the ones that we agree with! Beware the warning in verse 6 becaue it is a repeat of verse 2.
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. 11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full. 12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
What are those commandments? They are the Father's commandments and that means Old Testament. Jesus had much more to say about this, something about 'every jot and titl' and 'I have not come to do away with the Law but fulfill the law'. LOVE is OBEDIENCE, not something that we define ourselves by selectivly ignoring scripture. I can't believe that you made a statement this ludicrous so you could blindly support Jgnat.
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Shining One
Jgnat,
No Christian one has to have the 'whole truth' down pat. That is NOT my contention and you know it. Clear scriptural principles are just that. You know full well I am not talking about any 'grey areas', nor am I talking about protestant and catholic disagreements. (The basic contention is not anti-Americanism either.) You refuse to accept clear scriptural principles that are obvious. You admitted that you do not believe that Jesus is the only way to the Father. Is that what your headlong rush in trying to be 'tolerant' and PC has led you into? Your hypocrisy has no end to it. You have no guidline other than some loosely defined, 'Law of Love' that you claim is the basis for your arguments. You are dead wrong, backed into a corner of your own making from your foolish pride.
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Shining One
>All you gave us back was Moody and Finney
LT, you forgot Billy Graham and Billy Sunday.....
Rex -
LittleToe
Rex:
Rex to AuldSoul: Abiding in Christ and in His words, all of them, not just the ones that we agree with!
I agree. However that leads nicely into the question of "which are his words?" and which are later interpolations? Is it not for this reason that we have the earnest of the Spirit, to divide the word aright? Otherwise how would we make sense of all the later councils?
Rex to jgnat: You admitted that you do not believe that Jesus is the only way to the Father.
Can you supply the reference for that, please? I'm being genuine, as I would agree with you on the point that scripture is clear that Jesus is the only way to the Father.
However I would also agree with CS Lewis and Karl Barth that while an individual comes to God through Christ, it might be possible that they didn't not know that it was through Christ they came. John Calvin even concluded that Election is a secret.
I offer this explanation for such a view: Language is metaphor. When describing "God" we use the Olde English word "God", instead of Theos or Elohim. It's a word that had it's own connotations in years gone by, but through a recognition of the commonality of what was being presented (perhaps with a dose of syncretism) the word was adopted for use as a label for the Almighty.
People ally themselves with a personal and subjective view of the God of their heart. When they come together into a communal setting they find where their view agrees and differs with that of other believers. To that end there is a lot of accord, but also many divisions. However, how many people do you know why read about Christ and agree that it's a description of exactly how they would like God to be? I would suggest most.
The following discussion is also worth a read:
http://www.pcusa.org/theologyandworship/christology/grace.htm
LT, you forgot Billy Graham and Billy Sunday.....
You only exported them in bite-sized chunks, though. The Scottish theological appetite is far more hearty
I actually have a lot of respect for Billy Graham. Having personally met and heard her, methinks that Anne is far more gifted the Franklin, though.
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Shining One
LT,
>Rex to jgnat: You admitted that you do not believe that Jesus is the only way to the Father.
Can you supply the reference for that, please? >I'm being genuine, as I would agree with you on the point that scripture is clear that Jesus is the only way to the Father. However I would also agree with CS Lewis and Karl Barth that while an individual comes to God through Christ, it might be possible that they didn't not know that it was through Christ they came. John Calvin even concluded that Election is a secret.
my reply:
Election IS a secret from us and who can know the complete providential will of God? As Christians, we can only attempt to understand the more complex things. However, the gospel itself is simple and a person can come to Christ no matter the limitations. Many Christians in the world do not have a copy of scripture. They have very limited understanding and teaching. Some have come to know God without any missionary contact until afterward! That is not our situation. We are held accountable for what we know and the most vital Christian doctrines can become a very serious dividing line.
Here is the link:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/115459/2030218/post.ashx#2030218
The text from a reply to Sad Emo of a question:
Jignat: Thank you for your contribution, Sad-Emo (Others, too, but my typing fingers are getting tired).
Sad Emo: Jesus said 'No-one comes to the Father except through me' BUT is 'mainstream' Christianity (I use that term loosely!) and the Bible the ONLY way to come to Christ?
Jignat: I THINK NOT (My capitalization). Paul said that creation shouts of the existence of God. People can see it if they are looking. Acts 17.
Jesus is the only way to God. If she mean't the above as some compromise to the 'politically correct' idea that 'all roads lead to God, or a few roads lead to God'. Thanks for the conversation and the link you provided. People misunderstand me because I take the call to reconciliation seriously. After my initial conversion to Christianity I did sometimes press to hard in sharing my faith. I learned that is counter-productive. I still believe that so much of what people call 'Christian' is actually 'religion'. Religion will not save anyone, only a personal relationship of Jesus Christ will do that. The conversion results in being born of the Spirit. Othodoxy is founded on the teachings and life of Jesus as the cornerstone and the foundational teachings of the apostles. They warned against compromise with the world and the Lord very much warned us that morality and authoritive teaching is essential to those who believe.
I have learned the orthodox teachings directly through my doubts. Would you believe that the chain of events resulting in my salvation hinged on my attempt to 'prove' the tri-unity teaching as false? I had cried out to God for Him to reveal Himself after I finally realized that the Watchotower was so bogus. "Jehovah, I don't know what truth is: everything I have been taught is false. If you exist and are there I need you to show me. I need to see you and have no doubt that you are answering me!" When I finally realized that Jesus was God, early Christians had indeed worshipped Him and He claimed to be God, the rest of the teachings came very easy.
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LittleToe
Rex:
Now we're getting somewhere. My own experience, while quite different, was broadly speaking from the same direction as yourself. I had a gradual awareness that Christ was more than I'd been taught as a JW, and that led to an epiphany / conversion experience.
I read jgnat's response as meaning that the Bible isn't the only way to find God. I would have to concur with her. However in it we find resonance with the Spirit within.
As you rightly state, there is much confusion between "Christianity" and "Churchianity" or "Religion". I've met plenty of "churchgoers", but it's a rarer thing to find someone from whom the Spirit of Christ resonates through and through. These I have found in far more places than a church, though unfortunately so many put the religion before their "relationship". I find it a sad thing to see. They come from all walks of life, backgrounds, and beliefs. It's a wonderful world!
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jgnat
If you are going to quote me, Sh***ing One, please do so in context. I followed up my comment above with the following.
My quandary, from a Christian point of view, Sh***ing One, is for those people who will never read a bible in their lifetime. Take for example an unlettered Aborigine on the mythical island of Borapapa. On his deathbead is he judged for his lack of a bible? Or is he judged from his native reaction to creation all around him; choosing good over evil his whole life long?
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/115459/2036555/post.ashx#2036555
Which in my eyes, appears very much as yours.
Many Christians in the world do not have a copy of scripture. They have very limited understanding and teaching. Some have come to know God without any missionary contact until afterward!
You've judged me too early, Sh**ing One. So back to the main dividing line between us, what are the "most vital Christian doctrines"? My first answer would have been the Nicene Creed, but I believe you have added many more of your own.