the Witch of Endor

by Magnum 31 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • TheListener

    I think someone on this board did some research, which I can't find, that says the bible says it's wrong to communicate with the dead but it doesn't say it's impossible. Anyone else remember that?

    What about the transfiguration?

  • Rattigan350

    "Magnum 1Sa 28:7 Finally Saul said to his servants: “Seek for me a woman who is a mistress of spirit mediumship,"

    How did Saul know that such a thing existed?

  • Magnum

    Rattigan350, I don't know. The account doesn't make sense to me. Vs 3 says "As for Saul, he had removed the spirit mediums and the professional foretellers of events from the land." So, if he had removed them, then why did he think he could have one sought out? Was Endor not considered to be part of "the land" from which Saul had removed the mediums?

    And I still say that the natural reading of the account indicates that Saul believed that he could speak with Samuel through a medium. JWs say that the entity was a demon. If that's the case, then whom did Saul think he was speaking to? He didn't go to seek out the counsel of a demon, did he? Again, the account reads as though Saul genuinely believed that he could speak with Samuel. If he did think that, then what exactly were his beliefs about Samuel's condition? Did he believe that Samuel was asleep in death and that the medium could temporarily awaken him? Did he believe that only Samuel's body was dead and that his soul or spirit continued to exist in another realm to which the medium had connections? I don't know.

  • BU2B
    The bible never states that the dead are sleeping as WT claims. Ecclesiastes 9 if taken literally also removes any hope of the resurection. Therefore there is no reason scripturally speaking why the Witch of Endor could not have summoned the actual man. The Bible is suprisingly ambiguous on what happens when humans die.
  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel
    God has left open the possibility that Satan might do so. He is, after all, capable of “every unrighteous deception.” (2Th 2:9, 10)

    If true, how do we ever know which manifestation is from God and which is of Satan?

    In the case of Samuel's appearance to Saul, there are several possibilities. First, of course, is that despite God's prohibition of spirit mediums, he permitted Saul burst through the veil despite the witch and deliver his horrible message. Second, it may have been an evil spirit. Such spirits knew much more than any man. They can observe armies from the air, watch them make their war plans in secrecy, tally the strength of their leadership and analyze war plans. They may even know some of God's plans. But we're not told and the author of the account may not know himself. That Saul took his own life is of little consequence. He was done for and God, who knows all things from the beginning, already was arranging for David's star to rise.

    By the way, has anyone here ever visited a spirit medium? Even for a hoot?

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel
    Again, the account reads as though Saul genuinely believed that he could speak with Samuel.

    But if Saul tried to gain communication from God and failed, why would God let it come through a medium? That's what makes me believe it was a deception.

  • Village Idiot
    Village Idiot

    Cold Steel, on the subject of witches, is this your belief?

  • Acluetofindtheuser

    Maybe the answer to this enigma hinges upon Jesus' statement made to the Sadducees at Luke 20:37-38.

    "But that the dead are raised, even Moses showed, in the passage about the burning bush, where he calls the Lord THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB. "Now He is not the God of the dead but of the living; for all live to Him."

    I even think the resurrection of Lazarus gives a clue to this puzzle as well. Lazarus was declared dead for four days. Every part of his body was in the process of decay. Jesus' statement above implies that the dead are alive with God. Jesus tapped into that special place where God keeps the living dead in order to bring Lazarus back.

    Back to Saul and the witch of Endor. If it was a demon, the demon would have refused to comply or would have given better news to Saul even if it was false information. Since the message from the woman came true it had to come from God. It would have to be God speaking through the brain pattern of Samuel.

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel
    Cold Steel, on the subject of witches, is this your belief?

    No, Nancy Pelosi is more in line with my view [shudder!]

  • steve2

    This is a sterling example of how people impose their pre-existing beliefs on the very words they claim are inspired by their "True God". They say they let the Bible speak for itself, but then proceed to alter what at face value is the unvarnished "Holy Scripture".

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