the Witch of Endor

by Magnum 31 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Magnum
    Jonathan Drake: you don't want the bible to be the word of God and nothing anyone says will convince you that it is.

    And how do you know that? Are you a medium? You know nothing about what I want. You presumptuously (and completely wrongly) say that I don't want the Bible to be the word of God. How dare you! I spent over 40 years trying to convince myself that the Bible is the word of God. I overlooked all the inconsistencies, the things that just outright seem wrong, the crazy stuff (for example, the Garden of Eden account, the flood, Samson), the ISIS-like slaughter of innocent humans and animals, the poor wording. the issue of canonicity of books, etc. I slaved and suffered for 30 years as a JW promoting the Bible even though I always had issues with it. I desperately wanted to settle all the issues I had with it and thought that if I did what the Bible says, the issues would be resolved. They were not. The opposite occurred; they grew in number and intensity. I begged God hundreds and hundreds of times to help me get my questions answered. Either he did not help me, he didn't have the ability to help me, he doesn't exist, etc.

    Even now, I want the Bible to be true. I desperately want a solution to all the suffering and injustice in the world. I'm still open-mindedly giving the Bible a chance, but, to me, the evidence against it seems strong.

    And just to educate you a little bit, the fact that I referred to the Bible as "the supposed word of God" does not mean that I don't want to believe it or that I'm closed-minded and stubborn and will never be convinced that it is the word of God. You lack comprehension.

    Just as because Saul wanted it to be Samuel and so he believed it was Samuel and so it was

    Your writing is unclear like that in the Bible. I suppose you're trying to say that I believe that since "Saul wanted it to be Samuel and so he believed it was Samuel, then it must have been Samuel." If so, you're wrong. In the Bible account, it's not just Saul who refers to the supposed entity as being Samuel; the narrator (the writer of the book) does, too.

  • Magnum

    opusdei1972, very interesting. Thank you for relating the quote in Ecclesiasticus; I was totally unaware of that. So at least some of the ancients believed that it was the spirit of Samuel himself speaking.

    I agree with you that that is the natural reading. That really is my point here in this thread. That is what the passage indicates. I say that if that was not the case, then it should not have been worded the way it was. It would have been very easy to say, for example, "a demon appearing as Samuel" rather than "Samuel".

  • opusdei1972

    Hi Magnum ,

    I have to say that the early church fathers were divided on this point. Justin Martyr thought that he [the spirit] was Samuel, whereas Tertullian held the Watchtower's view. Nevertheless, Tertullian's view was weakly argued like the Watctower.

    I am currently not a Bible believer, however, I like to do some "textual criticism". So, I currently admit that the Bible teaches contradictory views, because each writer had his own agenda.



  • Magnum

    opusdei1972, thanks again.

    I am currently not a Bible believer

    I respect that. I used to be a 97% believer, but now my doubts have grown immensely. I'm going to read it and study it now that I no longer have JW blinders on. I want to read the early church fathers and other such material. Also, I'm really interested in how current canons were determined. The Bible affects so many people, including some of my family, that I want to be thoroughly familiar with it. Plus, I find it to be an interesting study.

  • opusdei1972
    Talking about demons, one could think about the ethical inconsistency presented in two of the first Gospels, where we read that the earth was given to Satan by God Himself. If this were so, God is also responsible for the pain and wickednedd of this world, because we born in a world dominated by an evil superior being.
  • opusdei1972


    I started to see the big problem of interpreting the Bible when reading the Church Fathers. I began to read them, because I wanted to find the "pure" teachings of the Society in the early christian writers. However, I found the opposite, and I began to understand that the Septuagint differs from the Hebrew Bible, and it caused a great problem between christians and Jews. So I wondered why Jehovah let "His Word" to be changed. So, I concluded that each word of the Bible can't be the word of God, because we have two versions of the Old Testament. This was the beginning of my surprises.

  • Jonathan Drake
    Jonathan Drake

    I should point out, for clarity, that while the context of what happens with Saul and the medium suggests a very likely probability the real issue at hand of a soul that is separate from the body shouldn't be dismissed.

    the fact is, as you pointed out, the bible isn't actuslly clear because translation into English leaves some things in doubt. Like in psalms it says that a persons spirit goes out before they go back to the ground (still haven't researched that yet), it also seems to indicate a separation in other areas which I can't think of off the top of my head. Then in the book of Enoch it specifically says that the souls of the dead go off into different... Sort of receptacles after death where they wait.

    its a very interesting subject. But at least where Samuel is concerned, my response is likely the one you'll get from anyone still in- and unfortunately the context supports it. So a different angle, in my opinion, would be best- if intended to use on such people. And outside sources like those posited here will be ignored by those people. Thus, as you mentioned, studying the same bible they use for support (real and not created support) of possibilities to put forward is the best course imo.

    also, it wasn't my intention to give offense, I just took what you said at face value. Something cannot supposedly be a thing in a case such as this- either it is or it is not. Your choice of verbiage suggests you either think it isn't or have serious enough doubts to use words that suggest it isn't (I.e., supposedly is a word that inherently casts doubt). And I'm not bothered either way whether you feel it is or isn't.

  • Vidiot

    Data-Dog - "Is that the story where Wicket the Ewok saves the girl from a giant, and the Stormtroopers steal all the X-Mas presents?"


    (...strong she was with the Dark Side...)

  • Heaven

    Soooo.... let me get this straight now.

    The Bible says it's okay to seek the counsel of a spirit medium but Botchtower says it's evil.

  • Londo111

    About Psalm 37:29, the word in Hebrew is olam, which means basically 'time indefinite'. And really, instead of "Earth" as in the planet, the Psalmist likely had in mind "land".

    It is not really prooftext for individuals living eternally in a paradise earth, but that righteous Jews as a class would live in the Promised Land for time indefinite.

Share this