The witnesses understanding of this scripture was one of the things that I could never grasp.
"28 Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment. "
They believe that the resurrection is the upcoming resurrection, but because death cleansed the resurrected ones of sin, it would be pointless to judge them on their past deeds, so "did good things" actually refers to what they did after their resurrection, and the judgement comes at the end of the 1000 years.
How can this passage possibly mean this? The good and vile things were clearly done before their resurrection. This is a strong example of them making the Bible mean whatever they want it to mean.
How do I reconcile this scripture with death being the wages of sin? I don't, instead this is evidence that the bible didn't come from god and is just a collection of writngs by men over time, like any other "holy" book.
John 5:28,29
by stapler99 19 Replies latest watchtower bible
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stapler99
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freetosee
I agree with you, stapler. As I remember the WT explanation, those resurrected on earth are recreated with perfect human bodies and have the 1000 years to become spiritually perfect as many did not know Jehovah in their previous life. Men of faith and princes will be resurrected at the beginning of the 1000 year reign and then those who most recently died before Armageddon. Those dead for long are resurrected later into the 1000 years as they were closer to Adam and perfection. So during the gradual resurrection of mankind the preaching and teaching work of JWs will continue in the new system and will be organised by Jah’s earthy organisation directed by Jesus and is 144000 co-rulers, just like it is today.
It is amazing how much speculation is put into the scriptures and we swallowed it all.
I believe the bible originates and was written by men, the actual collection of the cannon of Holy Scripture was conducted by men, so also its interpretation. Though the WTS goes very far to fit in its history and teaching.
Freetose
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Leolaia
You have a good grasp on things. In ancient Judaism and early Christianity, resurrection was viewed as a prelude to eschatological judgment... the dead were to be raised to face God's judgment according to their former deeds. That is the point of Matthew 10:15 and 11:22-24 regarding the people of Sodom and Gomorrah on "Judgment Day" (just as men from ancient "Ninevah" would be be raised from the dead on Judgment Day, 12:41), for "men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken" (12:36). Referring to life after death, Paul noted that "we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad" (2 Corinthians 5:10). The author of Hebrews connects "the resurrection of the dead" with "eternal judgment," such that "a man who dies once afterwards faces eternal judgment", so a person must refuse to sin in this life out of "a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God" (Hebrews 6:2, 9:27, 10:26-27). That is also the point of the opening of the "books" and the "book of life" during the resurrection...the "books" are a record of the deeds in a person's former life, against which he or she would be judged:
"But at that time your people -- everyone whose name is found written in the book -- will be delivered. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever". (Daniel 12:1-3).
"And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire" (Revelation 20:13-15).
Compare also the sins of Judah being written in books in Jeremiah 17:1. In 1 Enoch, the antediluvian patriarch Enoch becomes the heavenly scribe who records in and/or takes care of the "books of life", "the book of all the actions of the people and of all humans who will be on the earth for all the generations of the world" (81:1-2), and thus he warns: "Do not suppose to yourself or say in your heart that they do not know and your unrighteous deeds are not seen in heaven, nor are they written down before the Most High. Henceforth know that all your unrighteous deeds are written down day by day until the Day of your judgment"." (98:7-8; cf. 106:19-107:1, 108:6-7). The epistle of Jude in the NT, in fact, quotes 1 Enoch 1:9 as inspired prophecy which declares that on the Day of Judgment God will "come with the myriads of his holy ones to execute judgment on all, and to destroy the wicked, and to convict all flesh for all the wicked deeds that they have done, and the proud and harsh words that wicked sinners spoke against him" (cf. Jude 14-15).
One may also note the conception in the Jewish apocalypse of 4 Ezra:
"And the earth shall give up those who are asleep in it, and the dust those who dwell silently in it; and the chambers shall give up the souls which have been committed to them. And the Most High shall be revealed upon the seat of judgment, and compassion shall pass away, and patience shall be withdrawn; but only judgment shall remain, truth shall stand, and faithfulness shall grow strong. And recompense shall follow, and the reward shall be manifested; righteous deeds shall awake, and unrighteous deeds shall not sleep. Then the pit of torment shall appear, and opposite it shall be the place of rest; and the furnace of Gehenna shall be disclosed, and opposite it the paradise of delight. Then the Most High will say to the nations that have been raised from the dead, 'Look now, and understand whom you have denied, whom you have not served, whose commandments you have despised! Look on this side and on that; here are delight and rest, and there are fire and torments!' Thus he will speak to them on the day of judgment -- a day that has no sun or moon or stars, or cloud or thunder or lightning or wind or water or air, or darkness or evening or morning, or summer or spring or heat or winter or frost or cold or hail or rain or dew, or noon or night, or dawn or shining or brightness or light, but only the splendor of the glory of the Most High, by which all shall see what has been determined for them. For it will last for about a week of years. This is my judgment and its prescribed order; and to you alone have I shown these things." I answered and said, "O sovereign Lord, I said then and I say now: Blessed are those who are alive and keep your commandments!" (4 Ezra 7:32-45).
Many further sources could be produced....all associating the resurrection with eschatological judgment based on the deeds one committed in life. The idea that Judgment Day is really the Thousand Years and the judgment is based on the deeds one commits post-resurrection is contrary to the whole logic of resurrection in early Judaism and Christianity. Rather, the Society sets aside all of this in favor of misinterpreting Romans 6:6-7 and 6:23 as implying that the slate of sin is wiped clean through death. This is not what Paul was thinking (as 2 Corinthians 5:10 also shows). For the standard exegesis of Romans 6, see my posting below:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/98123/1684277/post.ashx#1684277
In short, the acquittal from sin and the freedom from slavery under sin (construing sin as a slave-owner) concerns the legal relationship between man and sin, not between man and God. It does not mean that a man is no longer accountable to God for his sins, as Romans 14:10 also makes clear. It actually means the opposite...a person becomes accountable only to God, who -- by securing his release from sin -- becomes his new master.
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greendawn
"because death cleansed the resurrected ones of sin"
That never seemed to me logical since different people committed unrepentently sins of different degrees before dying and it doesn't sound right that they should all be put on the same level by any means, by death or otherwise.
That can lead to the idea "let's sin profusely because death will clear our sins as much as those of the light sinner".
My take is that sins will be taken into account in the new life though these will be mitigated by possible issues of coercion or ignorance on the side of the sinner. Hence why the Jews of Jesus days will be worse off than the people of Sodom. -
Star Moore
"28 Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment. "
Yes, absolutely, agreed..This has always been something I disagreed with in the back of my mind.
Lookie here: Rom. 6:7 NWT "For he who has died has been acquitted from his sin."
A friend showed me that, the context is not literal death..Rom. 6:4 'therefore we were buried with him through our baptism into his death, in order that, ........
Not literally buried in the flesh but as far as having our old personality impaled with him..
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Star Moore
So, bottom line:
We are not acquitted of our sins by a physical death...right?
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A Paduan
the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God
- you, who were dead in trespasses
- she who is self-indulgent is dead even while she lives
Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come forth
- you are like whitewashed tombs
- when the unclean spirit comes out of a man
those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.
- Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life
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Do not marvel at this
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lovelylil
The ones who are raised to be judged will have to repent of their past wicked ways and learn righteousness.This is what the judgement period is for, althought there are different opinions as to how long a period it is. If they repent, and change, they will be given everlasting life.
The church, those who put faith in Christ now and have already repentent from their sins, go to life upon their resurrection This is immortal life. They are the ones who did good things and do not have to be judged again. Becuase of their faith in Christ, they already passed from death to life.
There is a difference between immortal life and everlasting life. Only the church gets immortal life. But, Gods plan is to save all of mankind and all who repent and believe in Christ upon his second advent will have an opportunity to be saved also. This includes all who are dead in the graves.
Unlike the WT teaches, there is no second death at this time. There is no earthly hope either. The only option right now on the table so to speak (during the gospel age) is for you to become part of the church and recieve immortal life. This will be a large number of Christian believers, not only 144,000 as the WT says, but it will not be all of mankind. Once the church is all gathered to Christ and he comes again (second advent), all the rest of mankind will be addressed. Eventually the whole earth will learn about God, and Jesus will help them by removing all the obstacles that now keep man from believing in him including: satan who is misleading the earth, imperfections, mental and emotional illness, physical illness, poverty and depression, etc.
Because the church (believers in Christ now), accept Jesus at the current time, even thought they also face many of these obstacles, they are given a much better resurrection, to immortal life. The bible calls these ones overcomers. They overcame all the obstacles now in the current time and persevered thru trials and tribulation and remained faithful to Christ - never loosing their faith in him.
This is the good news of the gospel - that 99.9% of mankind will be saved - unlike the WT that 99.9 will be destroyed for not becoming Jehovah's Witnesses.
I feel sorry for them really because they think they will breeze thru into some earthly paradise after the tribulation but instead they will go into the judgement phase of Christ's return. Why? because they do not truly accept his sacrifice for their sins now like the church, because if they did they would partake at the memorial. By not partaking, they are showing that they are not in the body of Christ - which is the church. They are unknowingly rejecting his sacrifice made for them. So no matter how many works they perform, when Jesus arrives he will say to them "I never knew you" (Matthew 7:21)
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bob1999
Romans 6:7
I have no idea how anyone could misunderstand the meaning of "died" in that verse.
2 "....how can we who DIED to sin live in it?"
4 "....we were buried therefore with him by baptism into death....."
6".....we know that our old self was crucified with him...."
In verse 2 "died" clearly does not mean physical death. The man is writing a letter, how can he be dead?
In verse 3 "buried" clearly does not mean literally being covered by dirt.
In verse 6 "crucified" clearly does not mean nailed to a cross or a torture stake.
In verse 7 "dies" how in the world can this mean physical death? It is clearly referring to baptism.
A small child can clearly see this. Anyone who does not understand that Romans 6:1-7 is talking about baptism is not trying very hard or has allowed themselves to be deluded.
To say that "died" in verse 7 is physical death, is totally absurd. This makes me angry.....I'm going to go and kick something now. -
lovelylil
bob,
thanks for bringing up that point. You are correct.
I was addressing the resurrection only and that some would come back for judgement and did not see that the intitial poster used that particular verse in Romans to say we all pay for our sins upon death. As, you are correct that you have not automatically paid for your sin because you die physically. That verse in Romans 6 is talking about a different death. The point is that we who die in Christ (baptised into his death, meaning part of the chuch), have been released from our sins. Once we "die" this spiritual death - are sins are no longer counted towards us.
That is why I brought out in my post above, ONLY the church (those in Christ) at this time - pass over from death to life. Not anyone who is not part of the church - they must be judged by their deeds upon thier resurrection. That is why those who do bad deeds go to judgement. The church goes to life - their sins already forgiven.