well another convo with mum and i absolutely cornered her on the 'your dedicated to Jehovah not the religion' point (thanks all for info) I said ' did you research what we talked about' she said 'Jehovah helped me out as usual it was in the watchtower that weekend' i said 'read it to me' after looking for as few minutes she says ' here it is' me-'allright' her 'in the box' me-'gimme the box' she reads quetion #1 before shes finished i say beautiful ive got no problem with that now gimme question #2, she reads it,,, I said where the hell does organisation fit into that sentence? its a verbal contract so they can diss you if you ever leave regardless of you relationship with jehovah. she gets flustered, epecially when my stepdad is in the background agreeing with me, she puts me onto stepdad, (ill say they are both great just mind controlled) he agrees its a valid point, I said I dont agree with the influence the org has over peoples lives, I brought up that higher education is frowned upon and people are not educating themselves because of that and he said it was only if an elder gave a talk and put his own spin on it that that would be classed as a rule (classic argument putting people in front of the org I call it the human sheild tactic), he pretty much said the society has never printed anything to his knowledge saying that but he'll research it and I said Id do the same so I need help. Please find this stuff for me if you can. These are only two points in an over 2 hour convoIm just trying to wake them up not argue points cos the walls will come up.
phone convo with mum, help with research
by heretic 8 Replies latest jw friends
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jwfacts
It looks like Jehovah has answered again, though maybe not the answer they want about education.
This weeks watchtower (as stolen from another thread) says
"... The fancy houses and decorated furniture did not last. Those things were plundered by enemy conquerors.... It would be fitting for each of us to ask: 'Frankly, how much emphasis do I put on my home and its decoration? What about arranging for extra education to advance a career, though doing that would take up considerable time for a number of years, crowding out important aspects of my spiritual life?'".
Another good question is to ask your mother why JW's don't believe Jesus is their mediator? She will deny it and will flip out if she does the research. If she denies it ask if it would upset her if that is true. Make her confirm that it will be a big deal if the Watchtower Society really says Jesus is not the mediator.
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blondie
Why not this week's WT article:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/113706/1.ashx
14 The lesson we should learn from all of that is not about home design or
decorating. Long before the exile, the prophet Amos had rebuked wealthy ones in Israel for their "houses of ivory" and for their "lying down on couches of ivory." (Amos 3:15; 6:4) The fancy houses and decorated furniture did not last. Those things were plundered by enemy conquerors. Yet, years later, after an exile of 70 years, many of God's people had not learned from this. Will we? It would be fitting for each of us to ask: `Frankly, how much emphasis do I put on my home and its decoration? What about arranging for extra education to advance a career, though doing that would take up considerable time for a number of years, crowding out important aspects of my spiritual life?'-Luke 12:20, 21; 1 Timothy 6:17-19.Or this article from last year during which your mother and this brother must have been sleeping, daydreaming, home sick and did no personal study of the article, or suffer from some selective amnesia. Here the WTS presents "higher education" as the equivalent of giving your child poison. You have a choice to give your child the "poison" of a higher education or the spiritually "healthy" choice of full-time pioneering.
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w05 10/1 p. 27 par. 5 Parents—What Future Do You Want for Your Children? ***Some parents, however, are ambivalent in this regard. On the one hand, they would like to see their children make advancement in Jehovah’s service, perhaps in time entering the full-time ministry. On the other hand, considering the economic and employment situation in the world today, they feel that it is important for young ones to get a good education first so that they will have the necessary qualifications for a desirable job or at least have something to fall back on if needed. To such parents, a good education often means higher education.
The educational system varies from country to country. In the United States, for example, public schools offer 12 years of basic education. Thereafter, students may choose to attend university or college for four or more years, leading to a bachelor’s degree or to postgraduate studies for careers in medicine, law, engineering, and so forth. Such university education is what is meant when the term "higher education" is used in this article. On the other hand, there are technical and vocational schools, offering short-term courses that result in a certificate or diploma in some trade or service.
The trend today is for secondary schools or high schools to groom their students for higher education. To this end, most high schools focus on academic subjects that enable the students to score well in university entrance examinations rather than on courses that will equip the students for the workplace. High school students today are under tremendous pressure from teachers, counselors, and fellow students to aim for enrollment in the best universities, where they will hopefully earn the degrees that can open for them doors to promising and well-paying jobs.
What, then, are Christian parents to do? Of course, they want their children to do well in school and learn the necessary skills for maintaining themselves in the days ahead. (Proverbs 22:29) But should they simply let their children be swept along by the spirit of competition for material advancement and success? What sort of goals do they put before their children, either by word or by personal example? Some parents work very hard and save so as to be able to send their children to institutions of higher learning when the time comes. Others are willing to go into debt for this purpose. The cost of such a decision, however, cannot be measured merely in dollars and cents. What is the cost of pursuing higher education today?—Luke 14:28-33.
When we think of cost, we usually think of financial expenditures. In some countries, higher education is government sponsored and qualified students do not have to pay fees or tuition. In most places, however, higher education is expensive and is getting more so. A New York Times Op-Ed article observes: "Higher education used to be regarded as an engine of opportunity. Now it’s certifying the gap between the haves and the have-lesses." In other words, quality higher education is fast becoming the domain of the rich and influential, who put their children through it to ensure that they too become the rich and influential of this system. Should Christian parents choose such a goal for their children?—Philippians 3:7, 8; James 4:4.
Even where higher education is free, there may be strings attached. For example, The Wall Street Journal reports that in one Southeast Asian country, the government runs a "pyramid-style school structure that unabashedly pushes the cream to the top." "The top" ultimately means placement in the world’s elite institutions—Oxford and Cambridge in England, the Ivy League schools in the United States, and others. Why does the government provide such a far-reaching program? "To fuel the national economy," says the report. The education may be practically free, but the price that the students pay is a life engrossed in advancing the present system. Though such a way of life is highly sought-after in the world, is it what Christian parents want for their children?—John 15:19; 1 John 2:15-17.
Then there is the environment. University and college campuses are notorious for bad behavior—drug and alcohol abuse, immorality, cheating, hazing, and the list goes on. Consider alcohol abuse. Reporting on binge drinking, that is, drinking for the sole purpose of getting drunk, New Scientist magazine says: "About 44 per cent of [university students in the United States] binge at least once in a typical two-week period." The same problem is common among young people in Australia, Britain, Russia, and elsewhere. When it comes to sexual immorality, the talk among students today is about "hooking up," which according to a Newsweek report "describes one-time sexual encounters—anything from kissing to intercourse—between acquaintances who’ve no plans to even talk afterward." Studies show that from 60 to 80 percent of students engage in this kind of activity. "If you’re a normal college student," says one researcher (notice the WTS does not name the researcher/source), "you do it."—1 Corinthians 5:11; 6:9, 10. In addition to the bad environment, there is the pressure of schoolwork and examinations. Naturally, students need to study and do their homework to pass the exams. Some may also need to hold at least a part-time job while going to school. All of this takes a great deal of their time and energy. What, then, will be left for spiritual activities? When pressures mount, what will be let go? Will Kingdom interests still come first, or will they be put aside? (Matthew 6:33) The Bible urges Christians: "Keep strict watch that how you walk is not as unwise but as wise persons, buying out the opportune time for yourselves, because the days are wicked." (Ephesians 5:15, 16) How sad that some have fallen away from the faith as a result of succumbing to the demands on their time and energy or of getting entangled in unscriptural conduct at college!Of course, immorality, bad behavior, and pressures are by no means limited to the college or university campus. However, many worldly youths view all such things merely as part of the education, and they think nothing of it. Should Christian parents knowingly expose their children to that kind of environment for four or perhaps more years? (Proverbs 22:3; 2 Timothy 2:22) Is the risk involved worth whatever benefit the young ones may receive? And most important, what are the young ones learning about things that should come first in their life? (Philippians 1:10; 1 Thessalonians 5:21) Parents must give serious and prayerful consideration to these questions, as well as to the danger of sending their children away to school in another city or another country.
Rather than be caught up by the materialistic spirit of the world, all of us need to ‘keep our senses’—our spiritual bearings. If you are a young person, ask yourself: ‘Am I putting forth my best effort to "accomplish my ministry," to make myself a qualified minister of God’s Word? What are my plans for pursuing my ministry "fully"? Have I considered taking up full-time service as a career?’ These are challenging questions, especially when you see other youths indulging in selfish pursuits, "seeking great things" that they think will lead to a bright future. (Jeremiah 45:5) Christian parents, therefore, wisely provide their children from infancy with the right kind of spiritual environment and training.—Proverbs 22:6; Ecclesiastes 12:1; 2 Timothy 3:14, 15.
Studies show that in many countries, there is an acute need, not for university graduates, but for people to work in the trades and services. USA Today reports that "70% of the workers in the coming decades will not need a four-year college degree, but, rather, an associate degree from a community college or some type of technical certificate." Many such institutions offer short courses in office skills, auto repair, computer repair, plumbing, hairdressing, and a host of other trades. Are these desirable jobs? Certainly! Perhaps they are not as glamorous as some might envision, but they do offer the means and the flexibility needed by those whose true vocation is service to Jehovah.—2 Thessalonians 3:8.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/101756/1.ashx
Blondie
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rebel8
More anti-college stuff: Awake!, 5/22/1969, pg. 15; Watchtower, 7/15/1982, pgs. 14-15; Watchtower, 8/15/87, pg. 11; Young People Ask, pgs. 177-122 ; Kingdom Ministry , 6/2001; AWAKE!, 5/8/1989, pg. 13-14 ; Talks and dramas at 2005 District Conventions; 10/1/2005 Watchtower; Watchtower, 11/1/1992, pgs.17-21
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heretic
great stuff guys,
now the challenge will be presenting them with all this without them putting the apostate tag on me. Its all good ill just slowly put it to them. cheers guys.
JWfacts, see you this weekend?
blondie you do great work.
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stevenyc
Then there is the environment. University and college campuses are notorious for bad behavior—drug and alcohol abuse, immorality, cheating, hazing, and the list goes on. Consider alcohol abuse. Reporting on binge drinking, that is, drinking for the sole purpose of getting drunk, New Scientist magazine says: "About 44 per cent of [university students in the United States] binge at least once in a typical two-week period." The same problem is common among young people in Australia, Britain, Russia, and elsewhere. When it comes to sexual immorality, the talk among students today is about "hooking up," which according to a Newsweek report "describes one-time sexual encounters—anything from kissing to intercourse—between acquaintances who’ve no plans to even talk afterward." Studies show that from 60 to 80 percent of students engage in this kind of activity. "If you’re a normal college student," says one researcher (notice the WTS does not name the researcher/source), "you do it."—1 Corinthians 5:11; 6:9, 10.
The first quote is correct and from New Scientist vol 183 issue 2461 - 21 August 2004, page 28The second quote is correct and from http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6100311/site/newsweek
The third quote, interestingly is from here: Campus Crusade for Christ, Staff Ministry http://give2.ccci.org/fundappeal/index.php?fa=346
In another survey at the University of Michigan, more than 60 percent of the students said their interactions more often included sexual activity than "meaningful conversation." Furthermore, researchers agree with Dr. Beth Paul, a psychologist conducting a nationwide study of students' sexual behaviors, that "[having sex] is the campus norm. If you're a normal college student, you do it."
steve
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Jankyn
Thanks for the "human shield" metaphor. That's a good one, and I expect to use it often and well.
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Lehtiveli
Tip for a thing you should ask and try to talk about:
Is governing body guided by holy ghost?
If JW says yes, then ask why do they make false profecies and mistakes
If JW says no, then ask why they consider themselves as the only "god's channel" if they are not guided by God's spirit.
That is a situation that JW cannot win. -
heretic
cheers guys, some gems there, my step dad was emailing me his research and sending me a cdrom for my own research. If i come at them with all this information then theyll know its from apostates, so ill bring up stuff on the rom, its a slow process. Thanks for the help so far