Was Jesus such a great guy after all?

by Hellrider 37 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Nosferatu
    Nosferatu

    Jesus was an alien, plain and simple. He wasn't perfect, he was just more advanced. Being more advanced made him appear perfect.

    However, I have to wonder if he was also a drunk. He cursed a fig tree. He was a carpenter. Carpenters work with trees. Something's not right. I could see him in a drunken stupor cussing at the fig tree:

    "Hey fig tree, I want some figs........ Come on, bitch, gimme some figs!...... Come on you motherfvvving tree, I'm goddam constipated! I NEED FIGS! Fine, since I can't have a bowel movement, I'm going to piss on you so you no longer bear fruit. How do you like that you fvvving tree?"

    Damn, I gotta try that next time I'm drunk :)

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    One thing that one encounters readily in examining the gospel traditions is that a saying or aphorism may have very different applications or settings in one gospel to the next. Consider the passage in Mark 7:27 in which Jesus is portrayed as calling the Syrophoenician woman a "dog":

    "Let the children first be fed, for it is not right to take the children's bread (arton) and throw (balein) it to the dogs (kunariois)" (Mark 7:27).

    Literally, the term is "puppies" (kunariois), obviously meant to parallel the "children" (teknón). Now, this logion is a version of the aphorism attested outside of Mark in Matthew, the Gospel of Thomas, and the Didache:

    "Do not give dogs (kusin) what is holy (hagion), and do not throw (baléte) your pearls before swine, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you" (Matthew 7:6).
    "Do not give what is holy to dogs, lest they throw them on the dung heap. Do not throw the pearls to swine, lest they grind them to bits" (Gospel of Thomas 93:1-2).
    "But let none eat and drink of your Eucharist except those who have been baptised in the Lord's name. For concerning this also did the Lord say, 'Do not give what is holy to the dogs' " (Didache 9:5).

    The simple aphorism which is open to interpretation is applied in different ways in different texts. In the Gospel of Thomas there is no application given, while the context in Matthew suggests that "hypocrites" are in view, those who find fault with others while being ignorant of their own flaws (cf. 7:4-5), and who do not do the will of God despite their piety (7:13-32). In the Didache, the saying is applied to unbaptised persons receiving the Eucharist (= "bread"). Tertullian cited the saying in reference to the giving of baptism (De baptismo, 18.1), the Naassenes used it to refer to sexual intercourse (Hippolytus, Refutatio haeresium, 5.8.33), and both the Gnostics and orthodox Christians applied it to advanced teaching (cf. Hippolytus, Refutatio 9.17.1; Clement of Alexandria, Stromateis 1.55.3, 2.7.4; Origen, Homily on Joshua 21.2; Tertullian, De praescriptione 26, 41). Jesuine sayings were liable to wide application to different settings, and were often used to construct narratives intended to situate the saying into a story; sometimes miracle narratives were even based on parables or aphorisms (see for instance [1]). The story in Mark 7:27 may in parallel to other examples represent an attempt by the Markan author to provide a Sitz im Leben for the aphorism about giving holy things to dogs, by envisioning an interaction between Jesus and a Gentile woman, thereby interpreting the proper recipient vs. dog constrast as Jews vs. Gentiles, rather than baptised vs. unbaptised (as in the Didache), righteous vs. hypocrites (as in Matthew), initiated vs. uninitiated (as in other texts), etc. The Eucharistic interpretation found in the Didache builds on the aphorism in the direction of the Markan version, for it construes what is given to dogs as Eucharistic "bread", the very metaphor that Mark uses in his version. This metaphor, moreover, allows the wry retort of the woman by pointing out that bread produces crumbs so that both children and dogs may feed at the same time. The alteration of "dogs" to "puppies" in Mark is also accounted for by designating the proper recipient as "children", making "puppies" the canine equivalent.

    Thus we can see that gospel traditions were pliable and a saying can be used to construct a story intended to provide a setting for the saying, and the deviations from the aphorism found in Mark are explainable in predictable ways.

  • Hellrider
    Hellrider

    Leolaia:

    The story in Mark 7:27 may in parallel to other examples represent an attempt by the Markan author to provide a Sitz im Leben for the aphorism about giving holy things to dogs, by envisioning an interaction between Jesus and a Gentile woman, thereby interpreting the proper recipient vs. dog constrast as Jews vs. Gentiles,

    Thank you, Leo, that`s very interesting. If the point in Mark is to apply the aphorism "dogs" to gentiles, then perhaps I should have used that passage in the first post in the thread instead. But it looked to me like this was the point in Matthew too, but is it your opinion that the saying (give to dogs etc) in the Matthew-passage is about righteous vs hypocrites?

    I`m not so surprised if this kind of attitude (jewish arrogance towards gentiles) shows up in Mark (and possibly Matthew?), though. In the National Geographic-show "Gospel of Judas", there was this theologian (a lady, I don`t remember her name) that said that when she started her studies, she was told that the the supposed anti-semittism later on in the NT (in the letters, and possibly also in gospel of John), was just something that "evil people" read into the text...but that she had now come to the conclusion that these things are actually there. Possibly as a defense against aggressive judaism that was in conflict with the early christian communities, but whatever reasons, she meant that these things were there. So, I don`t see any reason why "jewish arrogance" (in lack of a better word) towards gentiles shouldn`t be present in the two oldest gospels either.

  • EAGLE-1
    EAGLE-1

    So if the Jews had accepted Jesus we would have been left out.Our lands taken and we would be dead! NICE....A 3rd reich style system but Israel as master of the world.LOL....................Gods a racist and a biggot....believe in me or die.Mein Fuehrer.

    THE MIDDLE EAST--THE CRADLE OF TERROR--CAN YOU FEEL THE LOVE ?

    WORSHIP WILL MAKE YOU FREE NOT ARBEIT MACHT FREI

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Hellrider....The interesting thing is that Mark is intended for a Gentile audience, cf. the many explanations for Jewish customs, names, and phrases (cf. 3:17, 5:41, 7:3-4, 11, 34, 10:46, 15:42), Latinisms (cf. 4:27, 5:9, 6:37, 7:4, 12:42, 15:16, 39), errors in Palestinian geography (5:1, 13, 7:31) and customs (7:3-4), Paulinisms (cf. 1:14, 10:45, 14:24), and Gentile names in Mark 15:21 (compare Matthew 27:32). My point in the last post is that Mark was not calling the Syrophoenician woman a "puppy" through applying a familiar insult term; rather, he was adapting an aphorism that had nothing to do with ethnic distinctions (and which could be applied to many situations) but which already had within it a derogatory reference to "dogs". What makes the Jesus of Mark more friendly to the Gentiles is that unlike the aphorism itself (which denies that holy things should be cast to dogs), Jesus implies that the Gentiles will receive Jesus' blessings tho not "first". And yet even that is not the case, for Jesus revises himself and acknowledges that indeed the Gentiles will be fed at the same time as the Jews just as dogs eat while the children eat. Rather than presenting Gentiles in a derogatory manner, this story instead turns the saying on its head....that the ones thought to be "dogs" (i.e. Gentiles in the eyes of many Jews) do indeed have what is "holy" cast to them.

    The case with Matthew is more complex. Since the Matthean author was revising Mark, he adopts the Markan version of the saying and its narrative setting, but he also receives from his fund of sapiential sayings the original aphorism as well which he includes in the Sermon on the Mount discourse (ch. 5-7). In the case of the story from Mark, the author of Matthew presents Jesus in a much harsher light (in which he is much more dismissive to the woman at first), emphasizes Jewish identity (i.e. "Son of David", "lost sheep of the House of Israel") more and alters the woman's identity (i.e. making her a "Canaanite," the ancient enemies of Israel), and most importantly alters the focus of the saying away from when Gentiles receive the "bread" to whether they receive it at all. The result is that the Canaanite woman is blessed individually because of her faith (v. 27-28), without affirming that the "dogs" as a whole will also be fed. This is in line with what Matthew says elsewhere: "Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans; but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (10:5-6; this saying does not occur in Mark). The reflects the more Jewish orientation and audience of the First Gospel. As for the aphorism that is incorporated into the Sermon on the Mount, the author embeds it in a discussion about "hypocrites", "false prophets", people on the "wide and spacious path", and "workers of lawlessness", so the intended application (if there is one) is probably non-ethnic and more moral/religious instead.

  • A Paduan
    A Paduan
    IMHO Henry's commentary isn't anywhere near the best.

    yeh - I walked through the field and coudn't find any wheat - maybe it wasn't ripened

  • Star Moore
    Star Moore

    some thoughts..I had.

    1.. Dogs didn't have the connotation that it does today..

    2.. He could have been testing her by saying that..

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Leolaia, Given that it is generally accepted that G.Mark represents the earliest form of the aphorism among the examples you've collected, don't you think it is more probable that it reflects the most orignal application? Jewish usage was consistant with Mark's:

    Gen. R. 81.3:

    to what are you [Samaritans] compared, to dogs ...

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