John Chapter 1

by mavie 41 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • A Paduan
    A Paduan
    I am wondering how those who believe Jesus is the Almighty Lord God reconcile the following passages in Chapter 1.

    John 1:1 - ..."the Word was God."

    John 1:14 - "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. "

    John 1:18 - "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

    If one believes that the Word, or Jesus, was God, then how can the apparent conflict found in verses 14 and 18 be resolved? If the Word became flesh and dwelt among us then he certainly was seen by many people on the Earth. However, verse 18 states that no one has seen God.

    "God is Spirit"

    You're extrapolating the words "No man hath seen God at any time" to mean 'no man has seen God's flesh at anytime' - but that isn't the statement

    Does your statement "those who believe Jesus is the Almighty Lord God" imply an either / or view ?

    More than one person being God is explanatory also.

  • lovelylil
    lovelylil

    Mavie,

    As you can see, people get very upset over this issue. But I can see that you are trying to understand this issue.

    You are correct that the Jews said he Jesus was making himself equal to God not Jesus. But, Jesus did not correct them. The Jews understood what the term Son meant in their Jewish language and tradition. It did not meant merely first child born to a family. It meant that Jesus had rights and privilages in relations to everything in creation.The NWT mistranslates Colossians 1:15 and says Christ is the firstborn of all creation. It should read "firstborn OVER all creation" Also this verse says Jesus is the IMAGE of. To be the image of God he must be DIVINE in nature.

    The Jews also knew that Jesus was saying he was was preeminate - always with the father. That is what they meant by equal to God and that is why they wanted to stone him for blasphemy. Jesus would have to be a divine person to always be with the father.

    So, in his NATURE he is equal, not in his POSITION.

    Does this make sense? One problem we have as witnesses is that the WT taught us Jesus was Michael the archangel. Becuase they had to explain why he is not mentioned in the OT if he was always with Jehovah. I did a research report into this topic and show how you can easily refute the WT's so called scripture proof. Also, Jesus is in the OT. Many bible scholars agree that when God manifested himself in the OT, it was Christ that people saw. That is why they said "we have seen God and lived", well, no one has seen God and lived. But you can see Christ, who is the reflection of Jehovah and live.

    If you would like a copy of the is Jesus Michael research, send me a pm. with your email address.

    Also, keep searching and you will find the answer you are compfortable with. Remember to take ALL the scriptures for what they say and if some do not make sense, look for others to shed more light. You will find the answers. Also, your belief is a personal thing, don't get into debates with people who are get nasty and want to tear you down. You are doing a good Job. Keep reading the NT, and you will learn a lot about Christ, including that he was worshiped and prayed too.

    One suggestion though, get another bible translation besides the NWT. Because the NWT has changed over 200 verses to agree with their teachings. God bless.

  • greendawn
    greendawn

    I also see things in the way Eduardo does, it;s plain silly to believe that God himself would descend on earth and be tempted by satan who is one of his creations and be humiliated and crucified by men also his creation. Such degradations against God simply don't happen.

    Just think that the Son was expecting to earn the bride by his sacrifice, does God need to earn anything at all? No because already everything belongs to Him.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    I'm not trying to start a war here or anything, but I looked at John 5:18 a little closer tonight.

    In the preceding verses Jesus answers the Jews who were persecuting him for working on the Sabbath by saying "My Father works until now, and I work" (MKJV). Then the Jews became incensed at him because he was not only breaking the Sabbath, but was calling God his Father, making himself equal to God.

    I think it is important to note that Jesus did not call himself equal to God here, the Jews did. I'm not aware of any passage where Jesus outrightly says, I am God.

    In verse 19 Jesus stated that he only does what he observes the Father doing.

    First of all, the text does not say that the Jews called Jesus equal to God. In fact, it is the narrator who says this. He does not say that it was in the minds of the Jews that Jesus was making himself equal to God; he says that they were upset "because (hoti) ... he was making himself (heauton poión) equal to God," i.e. what Jesus was doing was indeed making himself equal to God, which was blasphemy to them. The same expression occurs in John 19:7: "According to that Law he ought to die, because he was making himself (heauton epoiésen) the Son of God". Like the previous text in 5:18, the Jews wanted to execute Jesus for blasphemy for presenting himself as the Son of God. Was this a mistaken view of theirs that he was presenting himself as the Son of God when he in fact was not? No, the narrator clearly shares this belief. What he doesn't share is the view that such claims were blasphemy for Jesus. Moreover in the same sentence in 5:18, the narrator also says that Jesus was breaking the Sabbath and he presents Jesus as acknowledging this fact but defending himself by claiming elsewhere that it can be righteous to break the Sabbath (John 7:21-24, 9:16; cf. Matthew 12:5).

    In his reply in 5:19ff, Jesus does mention his subordination in role to the Father ("The Son can do nothing by himself, he can only do what he sees the Father doing," 5:19), so this could suggest that Jesus in fact was not equal to God. Yet the point of the discourse is that through obeying the will of the Father, the Son has all the authority, power, and ability that God himself has. Thus he says: "Whatever the Father does the Son does too" (v. 19), "As the Father gives life to anyone he chooses, so the Son gives life to anyone he chooses" (v. 20-21), "He has entrusted all judgment to the Son, so that all may honor the Son as they honor the Father" (v. 22-23), "the Father who is the source of life has made the Son the source of life" (v. 25-26), etc. All these statements emphasize the equality of the Son with the Father as it pertains to works on earth (particularly, "giving life"), which is precisely the situation described in 8:10-18, concerning Jesus healing people on the Sabbath. As it concerns the works Jesus was doing, Jesus affirms that he is indeed God's equal and repeatedly affirmed his equivalence with God in doing "whatever the Father does," in "giving life to anyone he chooses," in being "the source of life," and in being worthy of the same honor accorded to God.

    Now, later theologians have read more meaning into the text than is really there (i.e. using it as a proof-text for ontological equality in substance between the Son and Father, against any ontological subordinationist and/or Arian views), but it does assert that the Son is God's equal in performing the work that he was entrusted with. This compares very well with the qualitative use of theos in John 1:1 to describe the Logos as having the same traits that God has (i.e. whatever God is, the Logos is as well).

    Futher, at Philipians 2:6, Paul writes that Christians should have the same attitude as Jesus...to be like God? No, rather to not consider ourselves to ever be equal to God.

    Paul uses the liturgical fragment in 2:6-11 as a lesson on how members of the church should treat each other, "always consider the other person as better than yourself" (2:3). Paul was quite clear that in reality all brothers in the church were equals and none were superior to the other (Romans 10:12, Galatians 3:26-29), so by advising them to think less of themselves he was not implying that some brothers were actually inferior to others. He was recommending them to go further than merely treating each other as equals but to regard the other person "as better than yourself".

  • Star Moore
    Star Moore

    Good post, Mavie...I agree!

  • Star Moore
    Star Moore

    Good post, Mavie...I agree!

  • mdb
    mdb

    lovelylil,

    some like myself do not believe that Jesus is Jehovah but rather that according to John, when he says Jesus was God, he was saying in Nature, Jesus is divine like Jehovah. Not that he is God but he is in nature God.

    Re-read the Scriptures.

    Questions (some of many):

    1. There is only one God. How may persons are present in the following?

    Then the Lord [yhwh] rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the Lord [yhwh] out of the heavens. So He overthrew those cities, all the plain, all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground. ~Gen 19:24,25

    2. Who's glory did Isaiah see?

    In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord [yhwh] sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above it stood seraphim; each one had six wings: with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. And one cried to another and said:
    “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord [yhwh] of hosts;
    The whole earth is full of His glory!”
    And the posts of the door were shaken by the voice of him who cried out, and the house was filled with smoke.
    So I said:
    “Woe is me, for I am undone!
    Because I am a man of unclean lips,
    And I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips;
    For my eyes have seen the King,
    The Lord [yhwh] of hosts.”
    ~ Isaiah 6:1-5

    Talking of Jesus Christ, the Scriptures say, "These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him." ~ Jn 12:41

    3. Who sends who?

    For thus says the Lord [yhwh] of hosts: “He sent Me after glory, to the nations which plunder you; for he who touches you touches the apple of His eye. For surely I will shake My hand against them, and they shall become spoil for their servants. Then you will know that the Lord [yhwh] of hosts has sent Me.
    “Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion! For behold, I am coming and I will dwell in your midst,” says the Lord. “Many nations shall be joined to the Lord in that day, and they shall become My people. And I will dwell in your midst. Then you will know that the Lord [yhwh] of hosts has sent Me to you.
    ~ Zech 2:8-11

  • mdb
    mdb

    mavie,

    I think it is important to note that Jesus did not call himself equal to God here, the Jews did. I'm not aware of any passage where Jesus outrightly says, I am God.

    The Scriptures do not directly say the Father is YHWH, but we know He is YHWH because He is called “God” and the “only true God” (John 6:27; 17:3)

    Jesus is called “God” (John 1:1; 20:28), “Mighty God” (Isaiah 9:6; 10:21), “our great God and Savior” (Titus 2:13), and “Lord” (Romans 10:9; 1 Cor 12:3; Phil 2:11; John 20:28)

  • lovelylil
    lovelylil

    Hi mdb,

    I am bold facing not to be rude but to highlight what I am trying to say.

    I think you misunderstood my post. I know Jehovah is one God. I am not saying that Jesus is God, Jehovah.

    I was saying John did not mean Jesus was God in the sense of being Jehovah.

    He was saying Jesus was Divine in NATURE. That is how he was equal. Not in Position because the father is greater than the son. Here is an example of what I was saying:

    A human father is superior in position to his human son. Yet, the son is equal to the father in that he is human like his father. By nature a father and son are both humans.

    So Jesus is only equal in that by his nature he is (divine). He was preeminate not created and always with Jehovah. they were never apart. This is why only he really knows the father. Does this make it clearer as to what I mean?

  • mavie
    mavie

    Leolaia,

    While John 5:18 is from the narrator's point of view, in the next verse Jesus, through the same narrator, corrects the view that he is equal to God. He states that the Son can do nothing by himself. Rather, the Son can only do what he sees the Father doing.

    Is it reasonable to think that Almighty God can do nothing by himself?

    The claim that Jesus is 'divine in nature' can have many different meanings. Is he (a) God? John 1:1 seems to point the reader in that direction. However, Satan is also called a God in the Bible. What does this mean? Could it be that both have the same nature as God? Could they both be spirits?

    Sorry for the lack of references, I am at work and have been mulling this over in my head all day. Maybe I just don't 'get' the Trinity right now. It seems so complex. I prefer Occam's razor, the answer with the fewest amount of assumptions.

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