by FreedomFrog 31 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
I'm agreeing to it because I did tell my mom several years ago that if she can PROVE to me that the JW's ARE the "only true religion" then I'd be right by her side.
And if you end proving that the JWs are NOT the "only true religion", is your mom going to leave the JWs? I get the feeling that she expects far more from you than she is willing to give of herself.
If you want to really give them a workout, you need to let them know that they have to find non-JW religion to support their views. JWs are extremely enclosed in their limited literature. To venture out into a REAL library is a scary experience.
JW literature says that JWs are the one true religion. You could use the same reasoning and say that you're a true prophet of God. Hell, you could even use the bible to support that statement! That's why they need someone else's view to support them.
Who made the sun stand still?????
You mean the sun is moving???
No the earth is moving not the sun.
Four pillars hold up the earth !!!!
They thought the earth looked like a coffee table.
Only 2 people in the garden ( the whole freakin flat planet ) and God cant find them.
Logic rules.Men made it up.
Watch cartoons Saturday and save your breath.
Wow, I left for a brief moment to do some errands and came back with so many good responses. Thank you all. I'm going to get all of this together and try to come up with some stuff that could raise some flags in their minds.
FF
Here is the URL to the post by Alleymom (referenced elsewhere) which is the most magnificent and simple explanation of why 586-7 is the correct date. It shows (like a show-and-tell) how 607 is not only wrong, but totally impossible -- using the WTS own literature to prove it!
Go here and be prepared to be blown away: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/55372/1.ashx
Good luck!
Here are some good links that helped me.
http://www.xenu.net/archive/baloney_detection.html
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/thomas_paine/age_of_reason/index.html
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jeff_lowder/jury/index.html
http://www.religioustolerance.org/inerrant.htm
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.html
FreedomFrog,
I'll tell you up front that unless you have Jesus himself come down and tell you parents that JW is not the right religion they'll never beleive it. I've had the same problem with my family for years now. I'll detail some of the items that I've found in my textual criticism studies, but first let me say that you'll need to find a common ground with your parents outside of religion if you expect to have a relationship with them in the future. I'm sure that you still hold dear the values (outside of religous values) they've taught you growing up and it's those things that you both can celebrate.
Most of my research has been on the early christian church using non-JW literature and the historical record. This includes studying ancient manuscripts to find out what the original documents said.
Initially, here is a thought on the "inspiration" proof of the NT. We don't have the original documents so we have no idea what Jesus said. We don't even have a copy of a copy. The oldest know manuscript is from the late 3rd century. So, if God took the time to provide the miracle of inspiring the NT, whey didn't he provide the miracle of having it preserved down to our day?
Additionally, take out the New World Translation bible (large print) and look at all the manuscripts used to put that copy together. Then, take a look at different scriptures and see how they were put together. For example, take a look at Luke 22:39-46. Jesus is on the Mt Olives and as the disciples are praying he prays to God and then is arrested. There are four things wrong with this event. One, notice from the footnote that verses 43 and 44 weren't in the early manucripts but in later ones. Second, this is only time in Luke's writings where Jesus is in agony. If you look at Luke's passion narrative Jesus is pretty calm and collective and dies giving his life to God. Third, this is the only place in all of Lukes writings that and Angel appears and has nothing to say. This is a little wierd. Lastly look at the composition of the event. Jesus tells the desciples to pray, withdraws to pray himself, Is in agony, comes back to the desciples, and tells them to pray again. This composition is called "chiasumus" and was a litterary style used during that time. If you see the first verse (40) correspondes to the last (45) the second to the second to last, and so on. It is meant to draw attention to a central theme. Added verses change the theme from Jesus saying "your will be done" to Jesus in agony sweating blood. Doing this changes the meaning of the whole event, which would be changing the gospel. You find looking at the historical record that Jesus sweating blood was added in later centeries by scribes trying to combat Docetism which was an early christian belief that Jesus was not human (flesh and blood) but divine and only appeared to the disciples.
My point with this is that JW's like to take multiple sources and and combine them into one story. The "Greatest Teacher" book details the event of Jesus sweating blood and provides it as historical fact. When this isn't true. They combine events from all the gospels as one coherent truth when in fact their creating a new gospel. If you take the four books individually and look at them they each have a different story to tell. Mark's (the first gospel) theme, deals with a human Jesus that has emotion and doesn't want to die "why have you forsaken me?". Luke, on the other hand portrays Jesus and calm and collected and never shows any emotion and even dies saying that he gives his soul to God. Which one happened? They both couldnt have but the JW's say they did.
There are many other examples I could detail if you would like: differences in the birth narritives and the passion narritives, how the early chruch treated woman (there were woman bishops), the history of how the 27 books became fixed, even inaccuracies with the memorial arrangement (Jesus never said to "keep doing this in rememberance of me", that was first said by Paul (1 Corinthians) and added to Luke by later scribes).
In conclution, there are more changes/versions of the NT than there are words in the NT.
I hope some of this helps. I wouldn't bother trying to prove them wrong. JFK once said that "reason does not appeal to unreasonable men" and this is definitely true. If you go in trying to prove them wrong they will just put up their defenses and end up leaving angry.
Hi FreedomFrog,
Here's what we will discuss this Saturday. I don't feel that the bible is the "word of God". There are so many things like, it was WRITTEN by inperfect men. How can we say that they didn't decide to SAY they were inspired? Can you help me show reasons the bible may NOT be written by God?
The bible itself says that the scribes wrote lies. See Jer. 8:8 concerning the "false pen of the scribes".
Here's an interesting line of reasoning you might consider:
JWs believe the bible is God's word and that every word in it comes from God. It's a waste of time to try to disprove the bible based on science or any source outside the bible, because they just don't stand up to something someone believes came from God Himself. So I've decided to use all that I've learned from JWs about the bible to show them that they can't trust everything in the bible.
There's an old saying that says, "Seeing is believing." Has anyone actually seen God? Some parts of the bible say that some men have spoken to God "face to face" and elsewhere it says that no man may see God and live (Ex33:20). Ask any JW about this and they'll tell you that no one can see God and live, and that all those prophets who are said to have talked to God or seen God, actually saw one of God's angels.
"Wait just a minute", you say, " I know a little bit about the bible and Paul said that Satan can transform himself into an angel of light" (2Cor11:14). How do we know those prophets of old weren't being deceived by Satan in the form of one of God's angels? Didn't John say that Satan has deceived the whole world? Doesn't Matt 24:24 say that even the "chosen ones" can be misled? Surely we need to study this carefully to determine the truth. Isn't that what John said to do (John4:1)?
Let's take a look at Satan in the bible. He's found from first book to the last book of the bible. In both the first and the last he takes the appearance of a serpent (Gen 3, Rev 12). In Genesis, Satan (as the serpent) causes the fall of man and God says to the serpent, "you are the cursed one out of all the domestic animals and out of all the wild beasts of the field" (Gen 3:14). This was the only animal ever cursed by God. Isn't it strange then that Moses performed magic in Egypt with the only animal God ever cursed, a serpent? (Ex 4:2-4). In fact, Moses seems to have had a real love for serpents. He even had his priests make a bronze serpent idol and placed it on a staff. According to your Insight Book the Israelites fell into false and pagan worship of that serpent idol for over 300 years! Do you really think someone like that was talking to and seeing one of God's angels?
Could Satan really have fooled Moses? Well, Moses was just an imperfect man so it's certainly possible. And just because a few 'miracles' occured doesn't really prove it wasn't Satan. In 2Thes2:9 it says Satan uses deception and has the ability to perform "powerful works, lying signs, and potents". Portents are signs of something about to happen; similar to a prophesy.
So far this is just circumstantial evidence. Let's see if we can find something more definite in the bible. Look at 2Peter 2:2 "However, there also came to be false prophets among the people..." This clearly says that the people (Israelites) had false prophets among them. But wouldn't the Jews have rejected the false prophets and not included them in the bible? Jesus's own words provide us with the answer: ""Woe, whenever all men speak well of YOU, for things like these are what their forefathers did to the false prophets."(Luke 6:26). The false prophets weren't rejected; they were highly regarded!
Read Genesis 15:8-17 concerning Abraham's covenant with his 'god' and tell me if it sounds like a Satanic ritual: cut up the dead animals, separate the halves and have your 'god' walk between the bloody pieces in the form of a dark, smoky cloud with a burning ember at it's center. Doesn't that sound like something Satan would enjoy?
You may still find it hard to believe that Satan fooled some of the people in the bible, but there is a clear statement from Jesus that tells us it's true. One day a number of pious Jews came to the Temple to talk with Jesus. These people had followed their religion to the best of their ability as their prophets and priests had instructed them. They said to Jesus, "We were not born from fornication; we have one Father, God". And Jesus replied to them, "YOU are from YOUR father the Devil..." (John 8:31-44). How much more proof do you need that Satan has put his own lies right inside the bible in order to trick the whole world into worshipping him rather than God? I suggest you follow John's advice and "do not believe every inspired expression" (even if you find it in the bible), "but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God" (that is, test it against your own conscience), "because many false prophets have gone forth into the world." And some of them made it into the bible, a book compiled by imperfect men.
Some claim the Book of Job shows Satan is subservient to God. In that book it says Satan was called to heaven to have a meeting with God. Did a man witness this conversation? Of course not, such a man would die after seeing God. So how did this conversation become known to men? Either it was invented by man or Satan planted it in their minds. I'm sure Satan would love for you to think he's weak and subservient to God. Then he could blame it all on God. "I was only following orders, God allowed it all to happen, etc...
When Jesus described the choice between God and Satan, he said, "no man can serve two masters". Satan is not some underling of God's; by his rebellion he set himself up as an alternative to God. The very name given to the devil means "adversary", someone in an adversarial relationship to God.
Here's more proof that Abraham's 'god' was really Satan: In Gen 15:13 Abraham's 'god' says: "You may know for sure that your seed will become an alien resident in a land not theirs, and they will have to serve them, and these will certainly afflict them for four hundred years." Actual time the Israelites spent in Egypt (based on bible chronology) was 215 years. A false prophesy from Satan posing as god.
Still not convinced? Look at the two accounts of David's census:
2 Samuel 24:1 "And again the anger of Jehovah came to be hot against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying: "Go, take a count of Israel and Judah."
1 Chronicles 21:1 "And Satan proceeded to stand up against Israel and to incite David to number Israel."
Was it Jehovah or was it Satan? Both accounts are accurate because by that time the Israelite's 'god' WAS Satan.
"All Scripture is inspired of God" (2Timothy 3:16)
A great many people quote this verse to "prove" that ALL of the bible is inspired. But ask yourself, "Which comes first, the label 'scripture' or the inspiration?". Clearly God must first inspire something for it to be labeled scripture. And this is exactly what Paul was saying. So this verse could be restated as this: "If God inspired it, then it's proper to call it scripture." When you understand Paul's words in this way then they are in perfect harmony with John's words to "test inspired expressions". John's phrase "inspired expressions" are a reference to scripture itself, which must be tested to determine their origin and Paul agrees by saying that all that can properly be called scripture is inspired by God.
Levite priests
Eventually, Satan decided to choose his 'priests'. Israelite priests were decendents of Levi. Levi's father was Jacob and Levi had a sister named Dinah. In Gen 34:1-2 Dinah is raped by a canaanite called Hamor. In accordance with jewish law as described at Deu 22:28-29, Hamor's son offers to marry Dinah and Hamor offers not only the prescribed fine of 50 pieces of silver, but any price that Jacob will name.
How does Levi, the father of all future priests, react to this act of lawful obedience by Hamor? Levi and his brother Simeon lie to Hamor (Gen 34:25) causing all the canaanite males of the city to be circumcised. Then they kill all the males of the town (Gen 34:25) before they can recover their strength. Years later their father Jacob still remembers this horrible crime and curses Levi and Simeon (Gen 49:5-7).
So there you have father of the priestly line chosen by Satan. Levi was cursed by his own father as a law-breaker, a liar, and a mass-murderer. A fitting choice for Satan's priestly line.
Good Luck,
thinker
I stayed in too long; nothing doctrinally would have budged me very much because I knew that the early Christian congregation was working through doctrinal issues, Gentile members, circumcision, resurrection interpretations, etc.
But what did bother me was the unloving treatment of myself, friends, family and others in the congregation, over and over, by different elders, different BOEs, etc. After being in several congregations and seeing the same unloving treatment, I finally woke up to the fact that at best the WTS was the same as all religions that claimed to be Christian, and worse in the sense that they set themselves up as the only true religion.
I wish you success, but even if you are able to convince any JW of the falsity of their doctrines and policies, then they have to be willing to suffer loss of friends and family and basically start over.
It's not much different from trying to convince an abused wife/girlfriend to leave her abusive husband/boyfriend. Even abused children cling emotionally to their abusive parents. Practicing alcoholics refuse to see their sickness and leave the alcohol; perhaps coming back to it many times, facing death many times.
If people are ready, if they have seen enough abuse, if they feel the pain...........they are then willing to try out the new pain that comes with changing.
Blondie
Here is a simple line of reasoning: Who established which books were canonical, and when?
None count them with me, ZERO, of the NT books were considered Christian canon until well after the point where the Governing Body claims the Great Apostasy had begun. Who chose them, if not apostates?
Why would we think that writings chosen by apostates as valid Scripture would be inspired of God?
I think that one is easy enough for most JWs to follow.
Respectfully,
AuldSoul
