are we free? (page 2)

KW13

Imagine you were in a really awful situation. You saw people injured, blood, fire and total chaos.
Would you forget that?

It's the same with the society. We've been in our awful situation and we've been hurt in a way that we'll not forget. No one can see our scars and cuts. The thing is, we can all understand the situation. Its unique and a HUGE learning curve. You'll not do that again in a hurry eh?

The arguing here is easily out weighed with the nice comments. I've yet to meet someone here i don't like or that i couldn't chat to. Anyway its just a forum. Over a beer or something the situation would be different i bet you!

This is part of my healing process, the arguements can get out of hand but its not like were discussing a Christmas party that went wrong. This was our life. I'm not sweeping anything under my rug. I wanna get it all out and dealt with.
If a thread goes out of hand, fine. We shout a bit, say things we don't mean or even that we do mean then we go to bed. Wake up tomorrow no harm done.

nicolaou

I love debate and argument. Unfortunately it seems that too many posters misunderstand what argument is really all about. It isn't something negative or hurtful it's a wonderful, liberating, stimulating experience. I'm hardly the one to quote scripture but even the bible got this one right;

17By iron, iron itself is sharpened. So one man sharpens the face of another. . .(Proverbs 27:17)

Finally-Free made one of the most depressing comments I have ever seen on a discussion board, "Personally I think debate is a waste of time." Sounds awfully cultish mate, you sure you're really free?

Nic'

KW13

I dont love debate but i know what you mean. Your usually a lot clearer near the end about what you think. You see holes in your ideas or lack of holes in your ideas. Then you start again or make some changes. You must be able to LEARN and admit your wrong sometimes too. (i find that hard though lol)

lilybird

Debating is a good thing...it opens discussion to others ideas and can enlighten others.. It is only harmful when people take it personally.. or think that others should believe what they believe..

This is an open discussion board after all..as long as it doesn't resort to name calling or putting others down for their beliefs..no matter how much we disagree with them...being free means being able to express our opinions without fear of being ridiculed for them..

looking_glass

Okay for the person who thinks that Truthz is sad because they do not want to debate, same came be said for those who want to. It is each person's perspective. Some people enjoy debate. Others, debate makes they want to throw up. Is one person right and one wrong. No. Those feelings are not solely held or owned by ex-JWs or current JWs. I know people who do commerical law because they refuse to argue and litigators are known for their arguing and they went into litigation because they love to argue. What makes me wonder sometimes is the lack of compromise or shades of gray. It seems like there is still a lot of black and white mentality going on here.

nomoreTRUTHplz

I just want to clarify that I have no problem with debating. I meant to say that if we reach the point that we are personally attacking anothers beliefs and think that we are right and must get them to come to our way of thinking then are we free from the society's form of thinking.

I agree with you looking glass that sometimes there is too much black and white. Not enough gray.

I understand that part of being free from the society includes being free to voice our individual opinions, however if we feel the need to shove them on others, we are basically where we were as witness, even if those beliefs have changed.

I too believe that by debating it can open us to thoughts we never had before and conclusions we may not have come to on our own. Really my problem was not with debating but with a certain thread that was a personal attack on some peoples beliefs. It reminded me of exactly what the WTS does by attacking everyone who believes differently than them. Really our freedom means that we have the right to have our own beliefs and freely express them, but if we do it by belittling others we are exactly the same as the WTS. So basically what I meant was if we feel the need to CHANGE others beliefs, then are we free from their mentality that ALL must be united in their beliefs?

Phil

AMAZING!!!

Nearly all the responses to this thread are, what I would call , SENSIBLE, UNARGUEABLE, AND TWO POINTS SHORT OF BRILLIANT.

I CONGRATULATE ALL THAT RESPONDED TO DATE. KEEP UP THE GOOD THOUGHTS.

If I had to pick one word to describe the desires of most of the participants on this Discussion Forum, it would "TRUTH".

MY BEST TO ALL

Gregor

Good posts here. I agree that debate is healthy and stimulates thought. I think this site would be very boring if every post that stated a viewpoint was followed by several dozen posts that, in effect, said "Amen to that!".

I opened a topic a few days ago that was really prompted by what I feel were disrespectful assumptions by a lot of others here about what we as a collective group believe now, after surviving the JW experience. My JW experience was a long and involved one, family, friends, the whole ball of wax. I was an elder and an enforcer on JC tribunals. While I never had to confront the blood issue I was prepared to 'drink the kool-aid' or give it to my children if the situation arose. My avatar represents the Kool Aid man waving GOODBYE as I drove away from that life. I cannot 'forgive' the WTS. Yes, I still feel anger 25 yrs later.

To illustrate what generated my post is an experience I had in 2000.

For many years I was the national sales manager for a large manufacturer. I contracted with dozens of sales rep organizations all over the US and Canada. I needed a new rep. for the state of Georgia and I set my sites on one in particular. I flew to Atlanta and we had meetings, went to lunch, had more meetings and went out for dinner and drinks. In our very first meeting, which included the company president and 5 of his salesman, someone made a casual, offhand remark, that was rascist in tone. Maybe I should have nipped it in the bud right then, but I let it slide.

These types of remark escalated through the day and by the time dinner was over it had gotten to the point that I felt like I was hanging with the Klan. The very idea that, because I was a white guy, they would take for granted that I, too, was a bigot finally got to the point I couldn't take it any more and I felt ashamed of myself for putting up with it as long as I did. When we broke up after dinner, the president of the company approached me to let me know he would pick me up from my hotel the next morning and take me to the airport. I declined his offer and while I was at I told him there was no way in hell I could deal with his company and I told him why.

Maybe this clarifies the 'angry' tone of my "...put up or shut up" posts. I tend to let things build up and then I pop. As I said in one post, I couldn't begin to count the offhand, take-it-for-granted remarks that assumed that we are all still believers in the supernatural, but just a different flavor. I was disfellowshipped for apostasy and by god, I'M A REAL APOSTATE!

Thanks for all your patience with me. I am truly sorry if I hurt any individual persons feelings.

Gill

We're Freer than we were when we were dubs. Now we feel free to debate, and argue a point...which in itself is very healthy.

looking_glass

I think JWD is great for a number of reasons. It allows people to linger and read. People never have to post or state their purpose. However, for those who do, it is their call. I have only visited a couple of other on-line places where to me it was a mud slinging fest. I am not into that and that is why I hang out here.

Gregor - it is understandable that many people still experience pain and anger associated with their past life in the org. I, for one, do not begrudge anyone their experience or their current feelings (or lack thereof) about the religion.

But again that is where this site is nice. If someone wants to participate in a thread that addresses the "put up or shut up" idea, they can. Or alternatively, they can chose to participate in other threads. It is like the thread that questioned what people's positions were, whether it was just fluff or if they really wanted to debate religion. That thread showed that there are all types that visit here.

But again, everyone's experience and history is different. It is unfair to cry foul if someone does not see things exactly the way another human sees it. That is what makes the earth the place it is. Yes, from time to time, I stand upon my soap box and sing to the masses should they chose to listen. But then I step down and live amongst the average joe and join the mainstream.

As for being free. I wish I could say I am "free". But in so many ways I am not. I am not free to pay what I think is fair in taxes. I am not free to do what I want at work. I am not free to say to a client or boss "you are an @$$ and you should be ashamed of yourself". Do I feel that I am put upon because of this. No. I suppose if I really wanted to I could do all those things. But there are consequences to my actions, so in my own way I am not free but I have come to realize that life is a compromise. That being said, am I free to say to my family this is a crock of BS and I will not listen to it. Yes. But do I want to. No. I am willing to let them live their life the way they want and I only ask for the same in return. Though I understand a number of people here do not have that available to them.

So I am free to move within certain boundaries and I am fine with that.

are we free?

Share this