by TheListener 14 Replies latest watchtower bible
I need to be prepared to discuss this topic.
The witnesses use several NT verses about being 'fitly united' and 'of one mind' , etc etc. to show that Christians must think the same on spiritual subjects.
Using the Bible as your guide how would you explain to a witness that being united in mind doesn't mean uniformity?
Hello, TheListener
I’d begin by pointing out that Jehovah’s Witnesses hold very different and contrasting convictions/beliefs regarding a wide array of biblical subject. For example, some individual Jehovah’s Witnesses hold a conviction that they can conscientiously accept literally everything in a given unit of donated blood so long as it is sufficiently fractionated beforehand; this is in order to prevent premature death during a medical emergency. On the other hand, other Jehovah’s Witnesses hold a conviction that they cannot conscientiously accept anything whatsoever from a given unit of donated blood, even if it means premature death as a result of medical emergency. These convictions stand in stark contrast, yet these Jehovah’s Witnesses are willing to associate with one another as Christian brothers. Hence even serious and contrasting differences in belief are, evidently, not a hindrance to Christian unity, which means Christian unity is something beyond specific beliefs. (See WTS provided Durable Power of Attorney dated 2001)
I’d also point out the WTS does not teach that unity requires uniformity. (See Awake 2003 May 8) At the end of the day Christians stand united around whatever can be soundly reasoned from the Scriptures. Beyond that Christians let love overcome personal opinion to refrain themselves from putting opinions of men (including their own personal opinions) on a plane with what God actually has put into writing for us.
Marvin Shilmer
Listener,
I hope I can help. The scripture you are referring to that the WT uses is found in 1Corinthians 1:10. Here in the NIV Paul says "I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought".
Now, this text does not mean like the WT tries to say that you must AGREE on everything. Paul wrote this for a SPECIFIC reason only and if you continue reading the rest of this text starting in verse 11, you will see what I mean:
"My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that their are quarrels among you. What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul', another, I follow Appollos, another, "I follow Cephas', still another, "I follow Christ'. Is Christ divided? Was Paul Crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul? I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized into my name......
The point in the above verses when read in their context is that the Divisions are who they are following. That is all. nothing else should be implied here because Paul is not saying you must agree on everything. But certainly you had to agree you were following Christ if you were to call yourself a Christian. That is ALL that Paul is saying here. Be United in whom you are following, which is Christ Jesus.
Now, is there any proof that early Christians could decide on some matters themselves. Yes, Romans 14:1-8 - shows Christians could make up their own minds about foods to eat and days to celebrate. Something the WT today does not allow. No where in scripture do we find that the early Christians were totally conformed to everything the others believed. Like Pauls points out in Romans, some things are a conscience matter this applies to today also. Hope I helped.
Romans 14:1-15:13 — Welcome the [man] having weaknesses in [his] faith, but not to make decisions on inward questionings. 2 One [man] has faith to eat everything, but the [man] who is weak eats vegetables. 3 Let the one eating not look down on the one not eating, and let the one not eating not judge the one eating, for God has welcomed that one. 4 Who are you to judge the house servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for Jehovah can make him stand.
5 One [man] judges one day as above another; another [man] judges one day as all others; let each [man] be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day observes it to Jehovah. Also, he who eats, eats to Jehovah, for he gives thanks to God; and he who does not eat does not eat to Jehovah, and yet gives thanks to God. 7 None of us, in fact, lives with regard to himself only, and no one dies with regard to himself only; 8 for both if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. Therefore both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah. 9 For to this end Christ died and came to life again, that he might be Lord over both the dead and the living.
10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you also look down on your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God; 11 for it is written: “‘As I live,’ says Jehovah, ‘to me every knee will bend down, and every tongue will make open acknowledgment to God.’” 12 So, then, each of us will render an account for himself to God.
13 Therefore let us not be judging one another any longer, but rather make this YOUR decision, not to put before a brother a stumbling block or a cause for tripping. 14 I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is defiled in itself; only where a man considers something to be defiled, to him it is defiled. 15 For if because of food your brother is being grieved, you are no longer walking in accord with love. Do not by your food ruin that one for whom Christ died. 16 Do not, therefore, let the good YOU people do be spoken of with injury to YOU. 17 For the kingdom of God does not mean eating and drinking, but [means] righteousness and peace and joy with holy spirit. 18 For he who in this regard slaves for Christ is acceptable to God and has approval with men.
19 So, then, let us pursue the things making for peace and the things that are upbuilding to one another. 20 Stop tearing down the work of God just for the sake of food. True, all things are clean, but it is injurious to the man who with an occasion for stumbling eats. 21 It is well not to eat flesh or to drink wine or do anything over which your brother stumbles. 22 The faith that you have, have it in accord with yourself in the sight of God. Happy is the man that does not put himself on judgment by what he approves. 23 But if he has doubts, he is already condemned if he eats, because [he does] not [eat] out of faith. Indeed, everything that is not out of faith is sin.
15 We, though, who are strong ought to bear the weaknesses of those not strong, and not to be pleasing ourselves. 2 Let each of us please [his] neighbor in what is good for [his] upbuilding. 3 For even the Christ did not please himself; but just as it is written: “The reproaches of those who were reproaching you have fallen upon me.” 4 For all the things that were written aforetime were written for our instruction, that through our endurance and through the comfort from the Scriptures we might have hope. 5 Now may the God who supplies endurance and comfort grant YOU to have among yourselves the same mental attitude that Christ Jesus had, 6 that with one accord YOU may with one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
7 Therefore welcome one another, just as the Christ also welcomed us, with glory to God in view. 8 For I say that Christ actually became a minister of those who are circumcised in behalf of God’s truthfulness, so as to verify the promises He made to their forefathers, 9 and that the nations might glorify God for his mercy. Just as it is written: “That is why I will openly acknowledge you among the nations and to your name I will make melody.” 10 And again he says: “Be glad, YOU nations, with his people.” 11 And again: “Praise Jehovah, all YOU nations, and let all the peoples praise him.” 12 And again Isaiah says: “There will be the root of Jes´se, and there will be one arising to rule nations; on him nations will rest their hope.” 13 May the God who gives hope fill YOU with all joy and peace by YOUR believing, that YOU may abound in hope with power of holy spirit.
Difference does not indicate disunity. Neither uniformity nor conformity is the underlying goal of Christianity.
Galatians 2:15-21 — We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners from the nations, 16 knowing as we do that a man is declared righteous, not due to works of law, but only through faith toward Christ Jesus, even we have put our faith in Christ Jesus, that we may be declared righteous due to faith toward Christ, and not due to works of law, because due to works of law no flesh will be declared righteous. 17 Now if we, in seeking to be declared righteous by means of Christ, have also ourselves been found sinners, is Christ in reality sin’s minister? May that never happen! 18 For if the very things that I once threw down I build up again, I demonstrate myself to be a transgressor. 19 As for me, through law I died toward law, that I might become alive toward God. 20 I am impaled along with Christ. It is no longer I that live, but it is Christ that is living in union with me. Indeed, the life that I now live in flesh I live by the faith that is toward the Son of God, who loved me and handed himself over for me. 21 I do not shove aside the undeserved kindness of God; for if righteousness is through law, Christ actually died for nothing.
Works are not the basis for declaration of righteousness. Works are a product of faith, which is the basis for declaration of righteousness. Such works produced by faith are not open to judgement by others.
1 Corinthians 1:10-17 — Now I exhort YOU, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that YOU should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among YOU, but that YOU may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought. 11 For the disclosure was made to me about YOU, my brothers, by those of [the house of] Chlo´e, that dissensions exist among YOU. 12 What I mean is this, that each one of YOU says: “I belong to Paul,” “But I to A·pol´los,” “But I to Ce´phas,” “But I to Christ.” 13 The Christ exists divided. Paul was not impaled for YOU, was he? Or were YOU baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I am thankful I baptized none of YOU except Cris´pus and Ga´ius, 15 so that no one may say that YOU were baptized in my name. 16 Yes, I also baptized the household of Steph´a·nas. As for the rest, I do not know whether I baptized anybody else. 17 For Christ dispatched me, not to go baptizing, but to go declaring the good news, not with wisdom of speech, that the torture stake of the Christ should not be made useless.
He did not indicate they should all be having identical responsiblities, learning identically, progressed to the identical point in understanding, or teaching identical things, but rather that they should all be unified in understanding who their head was. The divisions were not doctrinal, they were divisions over which person taught them initially.
Later in the same book he makes very clear that there would be differences, but there would also be one factor in common.
1 Corinthians 2:14-3:23 — But a physical man does not receive the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know [them], because they are examined spiritually. 15 However, the spiritual man examines indeed all things, but he himself is not examined by any man. 16 For “who has come to know the mind of Jehovah, that he may instruct him?” But we do have the mind of Christ.
3 And so, brothers, I was not able to speak to YOU as to spiritual men, but as to fleshly men, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed YOU milk, not something to eat, for YOU were not yet strong enough. In fact, neither are YOU strong enough now, 3 for YOU are yet fleshly. For whereas there are jealousy and strife among YOU, are YOU not fleshly and are YOU not walking as men do? 4 For when one says: “I belong to Paul,” but another says: “I to A·pol´los,” are YOU not simply men?
5 What, then, is A·pol´los? Yes, what is Paul? Ministers through whom YOU became believers, even as the Lord granted each one. 6 I planted, A·pol´los watered, but God kept making [it] grow; 7 so that neither is he that plants anything nor is he that waters, but God who makes [it] grow. 8 Now he that plants and he that waters are one, but each [person] will receive his own reward according to his own labor. 9 For we are God’s fellow workers. YOU people are God’s field under cultivation, God’s building.
10 According to the undeserved kindness of God that was given to me, as a wise director of works I laid a foundation, but someone else is building on it. But let each one keep watching how he is building on it. 11 For no man can lay any other foundation than what is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood materials, hay, stubble, 13 each one’s work will become manifest, for the day will show it up, because it will be revealed by means of fire; and the fire itself will prove what sort of work each one’s is. 14 If anyone’s work that he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward; 15 if anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved; yet, if so, [it will be] as through fire.
16 Do YOU not know that YOU people are God’s temple, and that the spirit of God dwells in YOU? 17 If anyone destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] YOU people are.
18 Let no one be seducing himself: If anyone among YOU thinks he is wise in this system of things, let him become a fool, that he may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God; for it is written: “He catches the wise in their own cunning.” 20 And again: “Jehovah knows that the reasonings of the wise men are futile.” 21 Hence let no one be boasting in men; for all things belong to YOU, 22 whether Paul or A·pol´los or Ce´phas or the world or life or death or things now here or things to come, all things belong to YOU; 23 in turn YOU belong to Christ; Christ, in turn, belongs to God.
Each person builds on the same foundation but the resulting structures will differ dramatically, in both form and nature. The resulting structure belongs to Christ—the foundation, however well or poorly built it is. If it is razed, what will be left? The foundation, to build on again.
1 Corinthians 7:7 — ...Nevertheless, each one has his own gift from God, one in this way, another in that way.
"His own gift?" Different from the gifts of others?
1 Corinthians 12:4-13 — Now there are varieties of gifts, but there is the same spirit; 5 and there are varieties of ministries, and yet there is the same Lord; 6 and there are varieties of operations, and yet it is the same God who performs all the operations in all persons. 7 But the manifestation of the spirit is given to each one for a beneficial purpose. 8 For example, to one there is given through the spirit speech of wisdom, to another speech of knowledge according to the same spirit, 9 to another faith by the same spirit, to another gifts of healings by that one spirit, 10 to yet another operations of powerful works, to another prophesying, to another discernment of inspired utterances, to another different tongues, and to another interpretation of tongues. 11 But all these operations the one and the same spirit performs, making a distribution to each one respectively just as it wills.
12 For just as the body is one but has many members, and all the members of that body, although being many, are one body, so also is the Christ. 13 For truly by one spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink one spirit.
"United" in the Bible does not mean sameness, conformity to a specific preset mold, etc. It means operating in the same spirit under the same head. A hand is not like a foot, an arm is not like a stomach. But all of these VERY different body parts, with VERY different functions are needed for the body to function well according to the instructions from the head. As can be seen from these verses, according to the Bible we do not have to think, or feel, or believe, or behave identically to be united.
The uniting force is the Holy Spirit. A force that has been robbed from Jehovah's Witnesses by means of trickery and deceit. They are told instead to look to the traditions and changing dogma of imperfect men for united thinking. They are instructed that this is the only way they can gain salvation.
The head under which Christ's belongings (God's sons, heirs with Christ) are united is Christ. The traditions Jehovah's Witnesses cling to serve to sever the head from the rest of the body and claim that a provisional and imperfect head has been given for the time being—the Governing Body (masquerading as the Faithful and Discreet Slave).
Of course such men expect unity and tolerate no divergent opinion, without such control Jehovah's Witnesses would quickly see they have no divine authority at all.
BTW, Listener, I won't be around this evening but I likely will be tomorrow evening. I hope this helps.
Respectfully,
AuldSoul
The NT is filled with many examples of Christians disagreeing and at times vehemently with one another. The council in Jerusalem details this as well as the apostle Paul's words and James. Peter and Paul didn't always agree as well as Timothy and Paul and Apollos. Discussion was openly encouraged so that all could be of the same mind and spirit. When agreements couldn't be reached, time was left for persons to change. All the congregations in Revelation had different issues that were regularly tolerated. Jesus Christ regularly allowed other voices to be heard.
Hey Listener,
check out these articles. They make some good points:
http://www.jwreform.org/repression.html
WTS Speech on Unity and Uniformity
*** w88 8/15 p. 30 Maintaining Our Christian Oneness ***
Unity
Is Not UniformityWorldwide unity, however, does not mean the stifling of individuality or the crushing of initiative. Where Bible principles apply, we are glad to forsake the independent thinking patterns of this world and to accept the leading of Jehovah’s spirit. Still, in carrying out our commission as preachers, there is much room for individuality and, yes, imagination.
***
w78 3/15 p. 12 Living as Belonging to Jehovah ***However, this unity is not uniformity. The fact that Christians all believe in the one Almighty God and in his Son Jesus Christ, who is Head over the congregation, does not make them like "peas in a pod," nor does it cause them to speak mechanically, as would robots. No, each has his unique personality, his own viewpoint on matters not essential to salvation. Each differs from the others, more or less, in his way of arranging affairs and of doing things, even in daily routines of work, in relaxation and amusement. This is to a large extent because circumstances and backgrounds of individuals vary greatly.
***
w77 10/1 p. 598 The Christian Congregation and Its Operation ***They come to know God—his personality, his fine qualities and ways, and can become imitators of him. (Eph. 5:1) This brings unity but not uniformity. Each member of the congregation, in ‘putting on the new personality,’ does not lose his identity. (Eph. 4:22-24) He still has his own tastes, talents and abilities. This works for enjoyable variety and for happiness in the congregation.
***
w56 4/1 pp. 197-198 Making All Mankind One Under Their Creator ***Have the thirty-eight years of the Communist experiment proved so full of blessings that now we want all mankind made one by totalitarian rule? No! say those who know it for what it is. In practice it produces a police state. As a whole it is dominated by fear—fear on the part of men high and low. The men high up who are in seats of control are in fear lest there be a popular uprising to try to overthrow them, and they are suspicious of one another. They are afraid of the dreadful purge, that they will be purged from the party because of some unintended misstep. The people underneath are also in a constant state of fear that they will be punished if they do not line up with the men in power. The freedom that is boasted of proves to be the mere freedom to join the Communist party or to vote for its candidates. So a uniformity is forced on everyone below; all elements religious, political, literary, educational, publicity, business, agricultural, scientific, medical, social, theatrical, yes, all fields of human endeavor are regimented and everything is lined up like a monolith underneath those few who are on top. State worship is demanded of everybody beneath, but this state worship is not willingly paid by everybody.
***
w54 7/15 p. 419 Watch Your Strength! ***Unity and harmony should reign in Jehovah’s organization. But to push this into rigid uniformity would be wrong. Organizational unity does not call for crushing variety and individuality. We should have courage to be ourselves.
Oh my god........................... I'll be right back
There was a Muslim, a Jew, a Catholic, a Mormon, a Buddhist, a Hindu and a Baptist all at a park one day when a person was freakily hit by lightning, and they went to help her, and she seemed to be ok - knowing they were of different dress and religion they looked at each other, smiling, knowing that spiritually they were of the one mind - they cared, beyond what they had on.
There were some other people there too, quite well dressed, that were freaking out about the end of the world.
........not everyone is of the same mind I suppose.
Your posts are exactly what I was looking for. I can't tell you how helpful this has been.
