UBM Point to ponder: Where do we fit into the equation

by Check_Your_Premises 14 Replies latest jw friends

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  Check_Your_Premises

  I am reading The Emotionally Abusive Relationship: How to stop being abused, how to stop abusing.
  
  It has been an enlightening read to say the least. I turned toward this topic due to LadyLee's constant reminders that cults are simply another form of abusive relationship.
  
  So now I am taking a new look at the ubm model. In particular the never-been-a-dub ubm. I think many of us
  labor under the assumption that we are completely healthy (by virtue of not being a cult member) and detached from the complex psychological equations that lead to and continue our spouses cult membership. We are the mathmetician studying a chalkboard looking for that solution to our conundrum.
  
  The reality though, is we are actually apart of that equation. We are in there somewhere making the solution easier, or possibly even more elusive. Or maybe we are apart of the problem?
  
  Now one running theme in the book is that abusers were almost always at some point the victims of abuse. Victims of abuse almost always go on to be victimized again or become abusers themselves.
  
  So here we are. Our spouses are members of a profoundly abusive religion. They are being abused. Which seems to imply that they were at some point in there lives (likely in childhood) the victims of abuse.
  
  And we picked them. Why?
  
  And they picked us. How come?
  
  How did their history and susceptibility to abuse factor into our choosing them as a spouse? Their choosing of us?
  
  This book I am reading may help provide some answers and solutions.

  A little something else to think about as we try to solve this
  puzzle. Hopefully, this will provide another piece... and peace.
  
  CYP
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  jgnat

  I struggled with this one for a long time:

  Victims of abuse almost always go on to be victimized again or become abusers themselves.

  I don't completely agree. I met some sad women who had gone through two or three abusive relationships who had completely despaired of ever having a normal relationship. They figured they either attracted or accepted abuse, and that they couldn't "help it" because of their own history. After years of observation, I've concluded it's simply the luck of the draw. Sometimes you pick a good one, sometimes you don't. Some abusers are very good at hiding their true nature until it's "too late".

  I do accept that some people have a much higher threshhold for "normal" and will leave sooner if something is not right.

  Take for instance, Broken Hearted . She has deceived herself in to believing she has no choice, after only nine months in to a relationship! Frankly, her "faith" in her "sweetheart" seemed very cultic to me. She saw no alternatives.
• 

  Check_Your_Premises

  Sometimes you pick a good one, sometimes you don't. Some abusers are very good at hiding their true nature until it's "too late".

  
  

  
  Interesting prespective... but aren't we wading into the murky world of perception, subconsious choices and even self-delusion?

  What I mean, is are abusers necessarily that good at hiding it, or is the victim unable to recognize it due to unresolved issues? Or is the victim "looking out" to avoid a certain type of abuse, yet subconsciously choosing another?

  Just some thoughts. These weren't my words, but the words of someone who has alot more experience in the subject. I am new to it. My response to the topic of abuse has always been, "quit bein a pussy!". I am with new ideas as children are with new toys. I want to show everyone. Sometimes it isn't a new idea for everyone else.

  However, one topic I don't see discussed here is how the ubm fits into the equation. I am trying to challenge the outside, clinical observer model. We are neck deep in it, and our own issues may be feeding the beast, or hiding the solution. At a minimum we need to understand abuse, and the relationship it has to our spouses and even ourselves.

  In my case, I feel I have struck gold. I hope some others can share it with me!

  CYP

  p.s. I love disagreeing and arguing with JGnat.... it just happens so rarely!!!
• 

  jgnat

  Awww, you love to egg me on, admit it!

  My perspective comes from twenty years a divorcee, much of it spent in a support group. I've endured the endless questionnaire at the women's shelter where they asked all the questions about family history, drug use, genetics, economic status, ANYTHING the researchers can get ahold of to figure out WHY.

  The problem I have with the subconscious route is that then we can't be held accountable for our choices. We're condemned to attract abusers no matter what. I'd like to think we can improve and make better choices for ourselves.

  My fihnal conclusion is that there is no WHY. Some people are just plain mean. Sometimes we get taken in. My contribution to the equation is that I tolerate it and stick with it too long. Like I say, some people are better at spotting bad behavior and rejecting it.
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  Lady Lee

  I'm glad you are finding the book enlightening. :-) You stated:

  So here we are. Our spouses are members of a profoundly abusive religion. They are being abused. Which seems to imply that they were at some point in there lives (likely in childhood) the victims of abuse.

  If they grew up in a JW family then the spiritual abuse along with controls have been there for their entire lives. They may have been other forms of abuse within the family over and above what the WTS imposes. But there are some families that were loving and supportive within the WT guidelines and sometimes in spite of them. I have always found it interesting that so many JWs sit on the fence with one foot in the cult and the other foot out hunting for a mate in the world. Some never told their boy/girlfriends about the JWs. And for many it never became an issue until they wanted to go back. But regardless of whether the UBM knew about the JW history the effects are still there. The true person is often very nice - otherwise you wouldn't have been attracted to them in the first place. But the whole theory of co-dependency is crucial for this dance. And once the cult personality takes control there is going to be little room for honest communication. Understanding the role the UBM plays in the dance between the two of you. A set of books you might find very interesting and along these lines are three sets of books by Harriet Goldhor Lerner.

  • The Dance of Anger
  • The Dance of Intimacy
  • The Dance of Deception

  All are great at helping the UBM to see their contribution to the ongoing dance. Lee
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  Broken Hearted

  Take for instance, Broken Hearted . She has deceived herself in to believing she has no choice, after only nine months in to a relationship! Frankly, her "faith" in her "sweetheart" seemed very cultic to me. She saw no alternatives

  I don't believe that I have no choice, I do have many choices, I just choose not to walk away from someone I fell in love with just because he is in a religion I was raised to fear. The alternatives were to walk away and leave this man or stay and try to understand something I have no clue about. When I say leaving him is no option, it is becasue I know without doubt that GOD brought him in my life. People question this statement, and they can have opinions on this statement which is great , however, I am the only one that Knows my relationship with God, the teachings I have grown up with and the checks I get in my spirit. I am not a pesron that runs at the first hint of seeing something is going to be a stuggle. I am a fighter, and I stand steadfast. I look at this way, Many times we can take what someone says and without knowing the tone of how something is said on here, assume one thing. It funny, people ask questions all the time like why are you so negative about things, and then when a person is being optimistic and showing hope, they are preceived to be living in a fantasy or denial. finally the part about my faith being cultic, could be I don't know, from all the research I have been doing lately and reading the material here and other places, I am seeing that all organized religion has some cultic characteristics and no matter how much we want to believe that the beliefs we have are the right ones, We won't know until the end. ( My tone of thought here was clarifying, not anger or putting down of others)
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  looking_glass

  It is my understanding that it is far more common for women to continue to deal with abuse. The theory is that women will justify the behavior and want to fix or change the person. The idea of I can help them through it and then they will be the person I know they are. This is where the ability to sit and think - 1) am I compromising or am I settling; 2) does this person want help or do they feel that they are fine and that there is no abuse; and 3) is this a situation where it is a work in progress or is there a stalemate. Women are known for staying in longer then they should. Nuture. It can be a good thing when it is directed in the right place. From a chick's perspective, I feel that the dogmatic religions are generally harder on women, because they usually do not have a say and are considered second class citizens. It is a dangerous place to be in so many ways.
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  jgnat

  Broken Hearted, I am sorry if my words sting. I am gratified that you are lurking and reading. This site is an enducation in itself. I do have some experience in the power of faith. I believe Jesus miraculously rescued me from a hellish life over 26 years ago. I've attended evangelical churches all this time. I see how faith is misused by the Watchtower society, and I see some of those same elements in you.

  You are convinced God gave you this man. There are two outcomes from faith in this that I think will harm you for the next few years.

  • I understand the power of faith to inspire people in situations beyond hope. If you truly believe this man was directed to you by God, you will likely spend years attempting to rescue the man.
  • The man you fell in love with has already turned you aside. Your faith is ignoring his free will.

  How old are you? Are you still of childbearing years? Serving this man may permanently deprive you of a family.
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  Check_Your_Premises

  The problem I have with the subconscious route is that then we can't be held accountable for our choices

  I don't think saying that the choices we make are subconscious keeps us from holding ourselves accountable. I think saying it is "the luck of the draw" does that. Pointing out the possibility of subconsious choices holds us accountable in the sense that we have to carefully study and question our motivations.

  Or maybe I am just getting a kick out of arguing with JGnat!!!
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  TheListener

  Individuals who remain with someone to fix them may be co-dependent. That's a major problem unto itself. Co-dependent individuals look for others who are flawed so they can "fix" them. Thus bringing a cycle of pain into their life that only professional help can fix.