What would it take

by DanTheMan 13 Replies latest jw friends

  • DanTheMan
    DanTheMan

    This is the famous picture that has been credited with causing a widespread 'Crisis of Conscience' in the US, and in doing so helped turn the tide of public opinion against the Vietnam War.

    I think it would take something similarly shocking to awaken most dubs out of their stupor and turn them against their overlords in Brooklyn. It would seem that the UN Issue, or 607 vs. 587 would be enough. But these things don't seem to have any shock power with most dubs, as is evidenced by numerous experiences related on this board.

    So what would it take? Has the GB so thoroughly linked dissent with apostacy in the minds of most dubs that there's virtually nothing that they could do that would cause the majority to pick up and leave?

    If so, that's really scary.

  • gumby
    gumby
    So what would it take? Has the GB so thoroughly linked dissent with apostacy in the minds of most dubs that there's virtually nothing that they could do that would cause the majority to pick up and leave?



    Hi Dan...interesting question.

    I don't think you are alone in wondering just WHAT it is exactly the prevents witnesses from seeing obvious fallacies in their religion. For those who DO see fallacies, there is still something that keeps them in.

    I believe for many witnesses...myself included, they honestly do not believe there can be anything closer to the truth.

    They feel they have it correct on the preaching work they do, abstaining from wars, abstaining from obvious pagan holidays, neutrality, the trinity, the soul..ect, etc. They feel there is no place to go to that is even close to the "truth". So, even when these have doubts about certain matters in the organisation, they figure they can deal with it. They also have the factor you mentioned if they do doubt too much...... the fear of being labeled an apostate and cut off.

    Also, I think the Organisation did a good job as far as canning their religious beliefs and methods. They are good at catching the unwary and unschooled believers to swallow ther message......by making everyone else look bad...religion especially.

    Gumby

  • BlackSwan of Memphis
    BlackSwan of Memphis

    How many times have we been hearing people say lately:

    But where else could they go?

    Gumby has made some strong points.

    Let me add this: Someone close to me said that they don't know what they would do if they didn't have Jehovah's organization to help them explain why there is evil and badness in the world.

    Honestly, some people hang onto the organization for hope. That hope of a paradise helps to solve the problems of the imperfection within the organization.

    Without the hope of a paradise earth, where there is no evil, no badness; where they will see their deceased loved ones again and walk in fields of gold ...

    There is no purpose to life.

    What other organization offers that?

    meagan

  • DanTheMan
    DanTheMan

    Good points Gumbapologist,

    I believe for many witnesses...myself included, they honestly do not believe there can be anything closer to the truth.

    Yes, No Trinity, No Hell, and Political Neutrality -- three aspects of the religion that are very defendable from a scriptural standpoint -- kept me in long after the initial rush of conversion had worn off. It's easy for me to forget how important these things are for most dubs, since I no longer hold the bible in any esteem and subsequently have no burning desire to adhere to what I think it "really says".

    Perhaps the shock to JW's has to be, not anything that the GB did or does, but just the shock of knowing that the Bible is simply the history, legal code, and mythology of the Ancient Hebrews, and nothing more. And considering how superstitious most people in the West are about the bible being "inspired", I guess that's more than I can wish for.

  • DanTheMan
    DanTheMan

    BSoM,

    Someone close to me said that they don't know what they would do if they didn't have Jehovah's organization to help them explain why there is evil and badness in the world.

    The psychological dependency of most dubs on the repetitive-to-the-point-where-it's-practically-ritualized WTS-indoctrination program is a sad fact. I guess it's the same with my mom and her Catholic faith. She'd be lost without it, really. Religion, the opiate of the masses indeed.

  • gumby
    gumby
    Let me add this: Someone close to me said that they don't know what they would do if they didn't have Jehovah's organization to help them explain why there is evil and badness in the world.

    That's the one thing that always made me mad at you Dan...you continually steal my comments!

    BlackSwan.......you mentioned another GOOD reasons dubs stay dubs....they want their promises they were promised.

    I was just going to say that dubs are not special in the area of NEEDING something to answer lifes questions and something to believe in.

    This thread made me wonder if it is not QUICKER to let go of dubdom for one who has lost hope in the bible and it's god, that for one who leaves dubdom and sticks with christianity. When I was a christian for 7 years AFTER exiting the dubs, I still held to many dub beliefs scripturally...as you mentioned, the trinity, hell, flag salute, (yeah, I still think it's an assnine obligation put on people and I hate it), and I'm sure a few other things.

    Actually, it was some of christendoms doctrines that was part of the reason I questioned the validity of christianity in time. I wondered how schooled pastors honored doctrines with obvious flaws. I was hurt I couldn't get straight answers from god as to who Jesus was...nor did I like the churches additude of ones who didn't except the trinity. Man...I could go on and on

    Gumby

  • luna2
    luna2

    Even if there was some worldwide exposé of the WTS that discovered intentional corruption, devil worship at the Bethels, and the GB and their little helpers doing drugs and having orgies, you would still have dubs who would cling to the organization...or at least to the idea of being JWs. The Society has done that good a job of brainwashing their followers. There would always be some poor fools who would just take it (any exposé) as a cleansing by Jehovah or as a test of their faith and endurance. In fact, they'd probably be more rabid because they'd feel even more special and sigular for being so few. I'm sure that this is true for most religions. Some folks can't let go no matter what facts are rubbed in their faces.

  • DanTheMan
    DanTheMan

    Gumby, I did about a year in the churches after leaving JWism, and it soon became apparent that, depending on the church, the congregants were either a lot like JW's (looking for legalistic, black/white answers to be handed to them by preachers who come off as being very authoritative) or else liberal to the point where the church was more like a boring social club. Both scenarios gave me little desire to go on attending. So if after this time I was still clinging to the belief that I HAD to belong to SOMETHING, then who knows, I might've gone back to the dubs.

    luna,

    There would always be some poor fools who would just take it (any exposé) as a cleansing by Jehovah or as a test of their faith and endurance. In fact, they'd probably be more rabid because they'd feel even more special and sigular for being so few.

    Oh yes, I've forgotten how appealing the elitism and persecution-paranoia is to self-righteous people. Anything that causes doubt comes from Satan.

    The WTS has been masterful. I gotta hand it to them.

  • Carmel
    Carmel

    I know this is a tad off topic, but I've had so many here side with the JWs in the perception that they are the only ones that teach certain concepts (i.e. doctrins). Taint necessarily so!

    carmel

    TO WHERE SHALL WE GO?

    Many times I have heard the quote from my former co-religionists (Jehovah’s Witnesses) “If not the Truth, to where should we go?” Just for fun, I have put together a simple comparison of some of the teachings of the Witnesses and their “fruits” and compared it to my chosen religion. I have specifically avoided naming what my religion is so that this does not appear to be an attempt to proselytize. You, the reader can then ask yourself if there isn’t an answer in the affirmative to “to where shall we go”.

    JW responses to questions about their faith often result in avoiding the question being asked and using diversionary tactics. If you are familiar with this strategy you will recognize a variety of techniques such as ad hominem attacks, bait and switch, or red herrings.

    In my religion, we thrive on answering questions, whether rhetorical or straightforward. As we are forbidden to proselytize, we must attract inquirers to our religion by our behavior and by chance conversation. I am not saying that in my collegium there are not those that will become frustrated and act out of accordance with prescribed courteous behavior, just that we crave sharing our faith and not all are equally competent in restraint.

    JW treatment of persons that question or have divergent views is to be shunned, black listed or disfellowshiped, destroying families and friendships.

    My religion appreciates diversity not only in customs, ethnicity, and race but in view points. Unity in diversity is a catch phrase common to our belief. The very essence of the meaning of religion is the coming together, not dividing. The family is the foundation block of a civilized society and anything that destroys its essential unity is to be avoided, even to the extent of withdrawing from religious activities to preserve it. Shunning a person because he/she thinks differently, has had misfortune in his/her life or is a died-in-the-wool sinner, is reason to be more loving toward them, not the converse. This applies to diversity of view point as well.

    JWs practice Disfellowshiping for those who break biblical commandments, as well their own interpretation of same, such as wearing facial hair, smoking, accepting life-saving blood transfusions, etc. In addition questioning these same interpretations can lead to judicial inquiries and even disfellowshipping, shunning and emotional violence.

    Asking questions is not only welcomed, but celebrated in my faith. It is recognized as the vehicle to the “independent investigation of reality” which is one of the central principals of my religion. In fact it is honored to the degree that one of the months of the year in our calendar is named “Questions”. When we stop questioning, our minds atrophy, our spiritual progress falters and we become more susceptible to the prompting of our on vain imaginings, i.e. Satanic fancies.

    The JWs often cannot answer a question without quoting “thee answer” from the Watchtower or some other of their society’s publications. The point is that individual thinking and expression of thought is highly discouraged and speculating on any issue of faith grounds for being considered an apostate.

    In my religion, how one applies the sacred writings to ones life and to that of society and its problems is what is important. Therefore, the diversity of answers will reflect the needs of a given individual and the society in which he/she lives. Of what value is a religious doctrine if it is not relevant to the contemporary needs of the adherents and the society in which he/she lives. My co-religionists and I draw inspiration and answers from all sources of truth and light. While it is true that our sacred writings are thought to embody the remedy for the ills of today’s peoples, it also acknowledges the value of thinking people of all religious origins and even of those from non-religious origins, especially the scientific community.

    JWs believe and claim that they are the only ones that are “preaching the good news”.

    In my religion, we recognize that the “good news” comes in different packages. While it is true that many of the mainline Christian denominations are not heavily into proselytizing, most would still say that they are “announcing the Kingdom of Christ”. It is more likely that the Witnesses really mean that theirs is the only “true good news” i.e., believe in what I believe in or my God will kill you! If this is the definition, then it is probably true that there are few if any that compare to the JWs. In my religion, we feel the sharing of our Faith and beliefs is exactly the “good news” of which Jesus spoke in His time. A new revelation, worthy of investigation and examination is held out to a bleeding and bruised humanity, but not thrust down throats with the threat of annihilation if one chooses to ignore it. The old saying that “actions speak louder than words” is true. The best way to announce the “good news” is to live it!

    JWs will claim that they are the only group that is a worldwide community that is truly united.

    In my religion, striving to establish the unity in diversity of all humanity is one of its goals. That it practices it in a degree far beyond anything the Witnesses have ever known is something only a member of my religion would be able to authenticate. No other religion I know of performs many of the feats with such little conflict as my Faith. In fact, it is known in many circles for being the most tolerant of others differences yet the most effective in conducting local, national and international campaigns. Were any Witness or any other to challenge this, I would gladly offer it as a work in progress, share its processes and its results to date.

    JWs claim to be the only religion to be known by God’s name.

    Scholars of my faith as well as its central figures indicate that the name of God has evolved over time. So linguistically as well as the nature of the Name of God is different in different ages and cultures. In one epistle, one of the founders of my faith identified ninety-five of the Names of God and alluded to numberless others. So it is for me a mute issue and has no bearing on a religions' authenticity if it uses only one of Gods names. Interestingly, in one of His revelations, the prophet-founder of my religion identified Himself as the “Jehovah of the Old Testament” casting a new paradigm into the meaning of the appellation.

    JWs claim to be the only group that is “separate” from the world. This, of course, is a code word and is a claim that they are not a part of the “things of this world”. Whether or not this is true is another issue.

    In my religion, a similar concept exists, however, rather than basking in being “separate” we concentrate on being a catalyst for change. One can only be a catalyst when one is engaged in and with the society. Rather than waiting for a great calamity to solve all the problems, my religion actively engages in educational programs, programs for the advancement of women, issues of literacy, self-governance and conflict resolution, to ward off the effects of a self-generated societal calamity. Rather than focusing on how much our membership is growing, and it is rapidly, we chose to look at what effect our involvement in the world is having and how we can further the teachings of our Faith for the benefit of all humanity. While we do not involve ourselves in partisan politics we are encouraged to consciously consider the candidates and vote for those regardless of political persuasion, that we feel will promulgate ideas and programs that are consonant with our beliefs.

    JWs will proudly point to their “fruitage and accomplishments” as evidence of their being God’s chosen channel. Unfortunately, if one is at all familiar with the JW program this is almost laughable. But assuming that “yea shall know them by their fruits” is the reference, I would be happy to compare my religion with the JWs on almost any point.

    For instance, my religion does not see itself as the “exclusive” channel to God. It, in fact, acknowledges all of the past revealed religions and honors them for the positive contribution they have made to humanity. This does not ignore how those same religions have declined to the point of having lost most of their beneficent influence, shattered their unity and compromised their principals, only to be replaced with a new “elan” and rejuvenated spirit through another channel. This process of human behavior has repeated itself thoughout history and will continue to do so. The fruits of the early Christians were much different than that of the present day, as with those of Islam. The time for a “new heavens and new earth” i.e. a new revelation, is apparent if religion is to reestablish itself in this world that has shattered the stranglehold of religious orthodoxy.

    JWs discourage almost entirely its members writing about their own religion.. Their leadership reserves all writing about doctrine and its practice to its selected writing committee.

    In my religion, all are encouraged to become scholars. Now the definition of scholarship is different than most would expect, but it does include truly scholarly research and publication. In order to do so, one needs to study, research, and do ones best to express him/herself. This requires education, which my religion places a high value on, in contrast to the discouragement demonstrated by the WBTS. I know of no JW who can compare to any of the hundreds of scholars in my Faith. Every year hundreds of books, monograms and articles are written by my co-religionists. They are published for peer review and public consumption on a wide variety of subjects of interest to the world at large.

    JWs basically present a very pessimistic outlook on life unless you are one of their members.

    In my faith, we see humanity on the verge of reaching a long sought after age of maturity. That it is going through the pangs of adolescence and is witnessing the results of child-like behavior does not negate the belief that a “golden age” will be achieved. Unlike what the JWs teach, God sends us directions and if we follow them, all of humanity will benefit because they will unwittingly be moving toward a world that is aligned with His Plan. The grand redemptive scheme is on going, all-inclusive and requires new paradigms of thought and action produced therefrom. Now I know I will not live to see that fulfilled, I am in “paradise” if I am part of the process that moves humanity in the right direction. So each generation has its role to play on this never ending, ever-advancing evolutionary process. Being part of that process is what it means to have “Gods’ Kingdom on Earth”.

    JWs claim to be the only religion that teaches certain doctrines thus proving they are the only true religion. Two of those are the denial of the Trinity and that Jesus was not bodily resurrected.

    These two doctrinal positions were expounded upon at length in the Quran. Muhammed indicated that the early Christian leaders corrupted the teachings of Jesus and introduced ideas foreign to His original intent. First, he debunks the idea of “begotten” meaning a physical relationship, that Jesus was in the station of “Sonship” perfectly reflecting the will of His father. Second, He (Muhammad) assured His followers that He, (Jesus) sacrificed his earthly life to raise mankind up out of its heedlessness and that the physical resurrection was an absurd idea and a compromise with satanic teachings. Finally, He assured us that the Oneness of God did not allow for the doctrine of “three in one” and that the text again had been misinterpreted. He even quotes Jesus words that He, (Jesus) was a “mirror” and explains the metaphor as describing the immense difference between the sun in the sky and the perfectly polished mirror (His son) that reflects the rays (Holy Spirit). All the above teachings are from the Quran, which dates back to the mid-seventh century, long before CT Russell was even a twinkling. So where it may be claimed that the Witnesses are a minority within the Christian tradition when it comes to the teaching on Trinity and Resurrection, it is not true to say that their belief is original or unique. My Faith as well as the 1.5 billion Muslims predates the Russell/Rutherford doctrines.

    The above few examples indicate to me and perhaps to the reader that there is/are a place to “go to” if one is considering disassociating with the Jehovah’s Witnesses, however, one should realize that the quote itself is a distortion as it was “to whom shall we go?” This question likewise has answers worthy of investigation and contemplation should one desire.

    Respectfully,

    Tod A. Jones

  • A Paduan
    A Paduan

    Dan - I think you're onto something - a picture (their own) paints a thousand words, literally - for those who don't / won't read or check out other stuff for fear of a demon jumping into their brain, glancing at a picture provides an instant plethora of words - we need access to all those bizarre and damning jw pictures - like "generation" stuff

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