Bible Christianity is Holy baloney

by Half banana 25 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Village Idiot
    Village Idiot

    Half banana: "...I have little doubt now that Jesus is a fabrication..."

    I disagree. Cults like Christianity do not invent leaders. Their members won't have the imagination to do so. That Jesus was mythologized is obvious. That 'pagan' texts were used to that purpose is also obvious. But it takes a charismatic leader to jumpstart a religion.

    Would you also believe that Mohammed was made up by the first Muslims? I'm sure you can find evidence that he too was mythologized but that doesn't mean that he did not exist.

  • cofty
    cofty

    I have been listening to some fascinating lectures/debates by Dr Richard Carrier who has possibly made the most convincing case ever published for a mythical Jesus.

    I have always taken the view that there was a Jesus of history. Now I'm not so sure. His new 700 page book "On the Historicity of Jesus: Why We Might Have Reason for Doubt" is on my wish list.

  • Village Idiot
    Village Idiot

    cofty:

    "I have always taken the view that there was a Jesus of history. Now I'm not so sure. His new 700 page book "On the Historicity of Jesus: Why We Might Have Reason for Doubt" is on my wish list."

    I'm sure the same logic can be applied to Mohammed and other leaders who started their respective religions.

    I have not read Richard Carrier's book but if he follows that same logic as others who say the same thing then he is questioning the existence of Jesus simply because he was mythologized by his early followers. So what if Jesus is pictured as a pagan demi-god? The same thing could happen to any other charismatic leader that actually existed.

  • cofty
    cofty
    if he follows that same logic as others who say the same thing then he is questioning the existence of Jesus simply because he was mythologized by his early followers.

    He really doesn't follow any previous opinions. In fact he explicitly dismisses most mythology theories about Jesus.

    I will reserve judgement until I have considered the evidence in his new book.

  • Finkelstein
    Finkelstein

    Yes the bible is full of embellished mythological story telling but unfortunately reading it stirs up emotions in people. Add those emotions to already instilled ignorance toward the reason and what purpose the words in the bible were originally written and what usually develops is an organized religion.

  • Finkelstein
    Finkelstein

    One thing you could accept is that those people involved who scribed the writings in the bible were trying to create a civilized society within themselves, such as the ten commandments and the supposed words of Jesus Christ.

    And wasn't the reason why the Romans eventually adopted Christianity was because it was deemed better than their old previous pagan practices ?

  • opusdei1972
    opusdei1972
    Half banana I can't show you any evidence for the existence of Jesus, because I am far removed from that time. However I can talk to you about some probabilities which maintain my belief that there was at least a historical person called Jesus who was condemned by the romans. Firstly, I admit that 90% of what the Gospels say lacks of historicity. But there must be a historical Jew called Jesus behind it. Otherwise, if he did not exist, then his disciples too. So, it would imply that Paul lied when he said, in the letter to the Galatians, that he met a man called Peter who knew Jesus. Of course, another possibility is that Paul did not exist too, and other person invented the letter to the Galatians so as to invent the meeting between Paul and Peter. Of course, false letters were not unlikely in that time, but I think that if we start to deny the existence of Jesus, we could deny the existence of Paul, Peter, and so on. So, who started to invent all of this stuff?. It would create a big problem for the historians. So it seems to me that it is easier to think that there was a historical Jesus whose figure (after his death) was gradually acquiring fame by his followers, because they were inventing facts about him so as to prove that his terrible death was predicted in the OT. Then he acquired a divine status, for instance, a birth of a virgin, in order to satisfy the divine standards of christians of pagan origins, who wanted to admire a hero like their ancient gods, who born from a virgin, and so on.



  • Half banana
    Half banana

    @Village Idiot “cults like Christianity do not invent leaders; their members won’t have the imagination to do so.”

    I quite agree with the second half of your sentence, they had no need for imagination when there was a ready-made and universal myth of a holy superman which could be elaborated upon.

    Was it necessary to have a charismatic leader to jump start Christianity?

    There are two strong arguments against this. Firstly as already stressed the virtually complete story of christ the superman, demi-god born of a virgin in a cave in midwinter with oxen, visited by three Persian astrologers, healed the sick raised Lazarus ,walked on water, turned water into wine and died at Easter on a cross etc . This tale was told from antiquity. Again, Christianity with a capital C began in the fourth century with the Roman Church. It became ‘Catholic’ or universal by the deliberate absorption of all significant religious beliefs syncretising them into the Christianity we recognise today.

    The idea of Christ already existed in people’s minds so a man of flesh was not necessary and it was the Roman Church and Emperor Constantine, not any charismatic Jew which jump started the religion. In fact there is no extant written evidence that ”Jesus” was used in the first century. The most widely distributed Christian literature of the first two centuries, The Shepherd of Hermas, called the saviour hero ”Lord”.

    As regards myth it is worth appreciating that the obvious does not apply here. The obvious assumption is that a historical person or event, a kernel of truth is elaborated and ‘mythologized’ over time. Whereas this is completely possible; this is not mythology, it is not the pattern of transmitting myth. For what it is worth; the opposite is true.

    I would maintain that much of the Bible texts are built around myth and not history. It is critical in understanding that what has occurred is that writers have historicised the myths and not mythologized history. In other words they have clothed the myth to give it a recognisable personality or plausible historical setting. As with the question of who is the real James Bond; the character (the myth) is fiction but comes to life by elaboration of his exploits and by the actors who play him. Once this perception has been fully grasped it makes for real progress in understanding what the Bible is all about. (IMHO)

    @ finklestein

    "And wasn't the reason why the Romans eventually adopted Christianity was because it was deemed better than their old previous pagan practices ?"

    I would say that they adopted Christianity because IT WAS ALREADY their pagan practice!

    Consider...
    1) Hundreds of years before Jesus, according to the Mithraic religion, three Wise Men of Persia came to visit the baby savior-god Mithra, bring him gifts of gold, myrrh and frankincense.

    2) Mithra was born on December 25 as told in the “Great Religions of the World”, page 330; “…it was the winter solstice celebrated by ancients as the birthday of Mithraism’s sun god”.

    3) According to Mithraism, before Mithra died on a cross, he celebrated a “Last Supper with his twelve disciples, who represented the twelve signs of the zodiac.

    4) After the death of Mithra, his body was laid to rest in a rock tomb.

    5) Mithra had a celibate priesthood.

    6) Mithra ascended into heaven during the spring (Passover) equinox (the time when the sun crosses the equator making night and day of equal length).

  • Village Idiot
    Village Idiot
    Half banana, do you believe that Mohammed was also a pure myth invented by Muslims? It would be a parallel with the Jesus myth.
  • Half banana
    Half banana

    @Village Idiot, I haven’t investigated enough to know the answer or even to know whether it’s possible to arrive at a conclusion as to a reality of Islam’s founding figure. I think the strongest parallel is in the sacralising of the text which appeared in the Roman Church also took place with the Koran with similar results.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit