Is this a verse that J.W.s' don't have an answer to?

hubert

Luke 23:43....Jesus said to the "evildoer" (named Dismus) next to him on the cross/stake.....

"Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise." (Taken from the NWT).

Now, Jesus went up to heaven (in Paradise) after the resurrection, right?

So, the "evildoer" ALSO went up to heaven in "Paradise, WITH JESUS, according to that scripture, and NOT Paradise on earth, even if there is one, according to the Watchtowers' teachings about an "earthly Paradise".

So, since ONLY 144,000 Faithful and Discreet slave class will be in heaven with Jesus, does that make the "evildoer" that died next to Jesus one of the "Faithful and Discreet"? Why?

He only repented at the end of his life, when he was going to die, so he was not "Faithful" during his lifetime.

So, wouldn't that mean that ANYONE who repents will be with Jesus in HEAVEN, and NOT on Paradise earth?

Thanks...Hubert

gumby

Hubert,

The witnesses believe Jesus was in effect saying.." I'm telling you right now, you will be with me in paradise in the future".

They believe any in Jesus day that died BEFORE he did, could not be of the heavenly class( such as John the Baptist) Jesus was the FIRST to ever go to heaven in their understanding. Those at Pentecost were the FIRST in line for a heavenly home in their book.

There is discrepency as to where the comma is placed in that scripture. Others place the comma in FRONT of the word "today" where the witnesses place the comma AFTER the word "today.

Gumby

Gill

The Watchtower is allowed to 'stick a comma' wherever it wants to in a sentence, to make that sentence say, anything they want it to say.

Some call it 'poetic licence' and some call it 'BS'!

I reckon they could 'make something up' to suit their own angle, out of any scripture you care to chose. Once you start lying, you just have to keep going to cover up the first lie.

GentlyFeral

gumby said:

There is discrepency as to where the comma is placed in that scripture. Others place the comma in FRONT of the word "today" where the witnesses place the comma AFTER the word "today."

Yes, and they justify that by saying that since punctuation did not exist at all when the Bible was written, but only invented and added long afterwards, they can place the comma anywhere ~~they want to~~ that ~~their doctrine~~ Bible Truth ™ directs.

gently feral

moomanchu

any in Jesus day that died BEFORE he did, could not be of the heavenly class

Jesus did die before the two robbers John 19:32,33

The watchtower can still spin their way out of it though.

Jesus meant the paradise earth he will rule over .

But it still a good point of repenting right before you die and

then recieveing your reward.

Wait, they'll spin that by saying this was the

first time the robbers heard the truth.

You can't beat watchtower reasoning.

hubert

Gumby, I realize that the W.T. placed the comma in the place where it suits their doctrine interpretation. My main concern to this scripture is in the sentence below, which is also taken from the NWT.

The witnesses believe Jesus was in effect saying.." I'm telling you right now, you will be with me in paradise in the future".

"You will be WITH ME IN PARADISE (in the future). In other words, how can the "evildore" be with Jesus in heaven, if the W.T. says the evildoer will be on "Paradise earth", IF HE IS NOT ONE OF THE FAITHFUL AND DISCREET 144,000?

So, is he one of the 144,000? If so, wouldn't all people who repent become one of the faithful and discreet "in the future"?

OR wouldn't that make all mankind eligible for heavenly kingdom if they repent, and NOT just the 144,000?

Do you see what I'm getting at?

Hubert

moomanchu

In paradise is relative

Rev. says the great crowd is before the throne of god.

Watchtower says their still on earth.

To the watchtower It's all one big fat paradise

heaven, earth wherever. They specify the

location as to scriptual application as they see fit.

gumby

Gumby, I realize that the W.T. placed the comma in the place where it suits their doctrine interpretation. My main concern to this scripture is in the sentence below, which is also taken from the NWT

.

The witnesses believe Jesus was in effect saying.." I'm telling you right now, you will be with me in paradise in the future".

The witnesses believe(as you already know), that those who live on earth will STILL "be with" jesus....although they are in two different places( heaven and earth). Just as they translate the Great Crowd being BEFORE the throne as meaning on earth, but giving reverence toward heaven. In other words, "paradise" is on earth in this scripture in a witnesses mind.....not heaven...and these ones are still in a sense" with him".

I tell ya a funny one though. The witnesses also believe that Jesus went to speak with the demons to pronouce "judgement" on them.......while he was in the tomb for 3 days. If they apply "today" as meaning the present......then Jesus would have to have taken the evildoer with him on his journey to pronounce judement on the demons.

Gumby

Kaput

There is discrepency as to where the comma is placed in that scripture. Others place the comma in FRONT of the word "today" where the witnesses place the comma AFTER the word "today.

Hey gumdoer! How 'bout if the dubs put that comma where the sun don't shine?

greendawn

Even though I don't agree with the JW dogmas, in this case they are right in saying that back in those days there were no commas in use.

This issue touches upon the immortality of the soul and Biblically there are verses that support it and verses that contradict it, but the overall picture seems to be against it, what meaning does the resurrection have if humans never really die? If they get judged and assigned to hell or paradise what is the point of judging them after the resurrection?

On the other hand it may be that certain Christians that reached a certain standard eg the martyrs will carry on living after their physical death.

Is this a verse that J.W.s' don't have an answer to?

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