Is baptism necessary?

by ozziepost 48 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  stevenyc

  Narcissos,

  Baptized is both adjective and verb:

  v. to be baptized, . "Water got up my node while I was being baptized".

  adj. "I am a baptized christian".

  Ozzy is correct in that you cannot be unbaptized, without first having been baptized, if you are using the verb. However, if using the adjective it is possible. So, what we need to do is define the adjective use of the word baptized. If Henry is baptized and Jane is unbaptised, then what is the difference, or more importantly, what is the attribute pertaining to Henry, that is missing from Jane. This is where I bring in the church's concept of sacraments and salvation.

  Baptism is the most important sacrament displayed. (I'm using the verb baptism). By which Christians obtain salvation through the grace of Christ. Having salvation one is said to be a baptized Christian. The attribute difference between Henry and Jane is baptism, (salvation). (I'm using the adjective baptism).

  This goes to demonstrate how the Watchtower society colloquialisms can be used to identify method. It is commonly understood that as an unbaptized publisher, a person is willing to distribute Watchtower material before physically identifying themselves as part of that organization. The Watchtower society only uses the verb baptize. This is important. Once a person identifies themselves physically as a Jehovah's witness, then the control mechanisms kick in. (disfellowshipping and shunning)

  The Watchtower society is not interested in the adjective form, salvation is only attainable through them. You leave the organization, you die.

  steve
• 

  GodisRight

  Baptism is necessary for getting into Heaven. "Unless a man is born again, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of the heavens." In Jesus own words.

  Is baptism necessary for salvation or eternal life? Why the bible teaches that there will be a ressurection of the ungodly on earth to be tested by satan at the end of the "thousand year period".

  I believe faithful baptised Christians go to heaven while bad or ignorant of God's will; people are brought back to life on earth.
• 

  Narkissos

  Steve,
  A passive participle used as an adjective usually retains something of the verbal sense. "Baptised" can refer to a present status (adjectival force) but it is unseparable from the fact that a "baptised person" has been baptised sometime in the past (verbal force). And "unbaptised" / "non-baptised" also says both things (a present status and the lack of a past action). Contrast a non-verbal adjective like "lucky" which doesn't imply that a person has been "luckied" someday.

  (I'm splitting hairs but I love that )

  GodisRight

  Why the bible teaches that there will be a ressurection of the ungodly on earth to be tested by satan at the end of the "thousand year period".

  The Bible definitely doesn't teach that. Forget about what the WT taught you and read Revelation 20 again. The resurrection occurs after the millenium as a final judgement of past (prior to death) actions.

  daystar,

  Aren't we coming back to a pet topic?

  The Western model of "progress" (humanism -> reformation -> enlightenment -> technology/democracy/secularisation -> globalisation) has been consistently destructive of the mythical mind-frame in which religious-ethnical rituals were meaningful.

  The nostalgy of the mythical-ritualistic world is increasingly expressed in art.

  Tarkovsky insistently comes to mind.
• 

  stevenyc

  Nark,

  So, if a person is described as a lucky person, can that be said without him ever being luckied by fate?

  splitting some more hairs here.

  steve
• 

  Narkissos

  So, if a person is described as a lucky person, can that be said without him ever being luckied by fate?

  LOL, only as a second reflection / rationalisation...

  Think about the difference between "a white wall" (adjective -> quality, state, regardless of origin) and a "whitened wall" (verbal adjective, where the quality is expressedly stated as the result of an action). Of course in practice they may apply to the same wall.
• 

  stevenyc

  Nark,

  Right then, (rolls up sleaves), what about a person 'born lucky' !

  steve
• 

  Narkissos

  what about a person 'born lucky' !

  S/he would be born luckily unbaptised...
• 

  GodisRight

  GodisRight

  Why the bible teaches that there will be a ressurection of the ungodly on earth to be tested by satan at the end of the "thousand year period".

  The Bible definitely doesn't teach that. Forget about what the WT taught you and read Revelation 20 again. The resurrection occurs after the millenium as a final judgement of past (prior to death) actions.

  There are 2 resurrections. One before the millenium and one after the millenium. After the millenium, the wicked along with satan will be resurrected and tested once again before the final judgement. I don't believe that there is a resurrection during the thousand year period. I am sorry if that is what you throught I was saying.
• 

  Honesty

  There are 2 resurrections. One before the millenium and one after the millenium. After the millenium, the wicked along with satan will be resurrected and tested once again before the final judgement.

  Can you provide scriptural support for any of this?
• 

  GodisRight

  There are 2 resurrections. One before the millenium and one after the millenium. After the millenium, the wicked along with satan will be resurrected and tested once again before the final judgement.

  Can you provide scriptural support for any of this?

  "Revelation 20 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

  7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

  John 5

  "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. "

  ---

  As you can see. The first resurrection is for the holy. The second resurrection is for the unrightous. The resurrection of judgement comes after the millenium. The resurrection of life comes before the millenium. As revelation says, those part of the first resurrection have "no fear of the second death". But notice that those who are part of the second resurrection are in danger of the second death. That is why Jesus says those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgement and those have done good to the resurrection of life.