Hey you guys.
If you've been following my story you know I've been watching my dad find his way out of the org. He is so close and he doesn't even realize it yet. So he called me this morning with some questions because he's trying to make sense out of all the 607 stuff. He asks me if I've read a book called "The Gentile Times Reconsidered." I hestitated at first but honestly my dad has told us so many of his own doubts that I trust him with this info. I told him yes, that I read it after I had researched thoroughly the Society's literature and then started reading other accounts. He proceeds to tell me he has this book. He has an older addition and he just ordered the latest one. WOW!
He also has been doing his homework and has sent emails to quite a few professors and to Carl Johnsson himself and is eagerly awaiting a reply. He then proceeds to talk about Ray Franz! He has been doing some reading and he told me he's not sure he wants to contact him or not because he is afraid of what he might find in Ray Franz. I told him anything I've ever read on Ray Franz he seemed calm and not bitter at all about his experience. My dad agreed and I really think it's only a matter of time before he gets a hold of CoC.
He told me the more research he does the more he realizes how much stuff has been covered up and pushed under the rug. He knows about the child sex abuse coverups, the UN thing, etc. He is really searching himself and I think he will find his way through this.
anyhow some of the questions I need help with.....
(a lot of my research is still packed away.)
He wanted to know if there is any other lines of evidence to prove the 539 date besides JUST Ptolemy's canon. I know there is but as I mentioned don't have my research out.
Also, just correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Society use Ptolemy's canon to prove 539 and yet discount it when it says 586/587 for Jersulaem's fall?
thanks for any info. you can give me!
Need some help with questions from my dad....(607 stuff)
Hey you guys.
you have a pm...
MJ ~ I think she has a problem with replying to PMs ( she's got a mac ) you might want to include an email address for her as well.
I wish I could help but I'm clueless on this subject, continued great news with your dad.
Oh thanks. OK FL, you have an email then!
Yes. There are lines of evidence in the Society's own publications. But, for me, the most compelling secular evidence was the sheer weight of evidence regarding the timing of Jeconiah's (Jehoiachin's) exile in 597 BC and the weight of evidence regarding the date for the fall of Harran in 609 BC. Proving the secular dating of either of these events correct automtically rules out 607 BC as the date for Jerusalem's destruction.
The most compelling Scriptural evidence for me was reading Jeremiah 25, 27, and 29 and looking at the Society's marginal references on Daniel 5:26.
The 70 years was prophesied for Babylon, not Jerusalem. And the nations (including Judea) were to be subject to Babylon for that time period, not destroyed by Babylon for that time period.
Jeremiah 27 shows a lengthy illustration of yoke bars sent to the various nations referred to in chapter 25, but the yoke bar for Judea was worn by Jeremiah himself. The significance of the yoke bars is plainly spelled out in the text.
Jeremiah 27:8-18—“‘“‘And it must occur that the nation and the kingdom that will not serve him, even Neb·u·chad·nez´zar the king of Babylon; and the one that will not put its neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon, with the sword and with the famine and with the pestilence I shall turn my attention upon that nation,’ is the utterance of Jehovah, ‘until I shall have finished them off by his hand.’
9 “‘“‘And as for YOU men, do not listen to YOUR prophets and to YOUR practicers of divination and to YOUR dreamers and to YOUR practicers of magic and to YOUR sorcerers, who are saying to YOU: “YOU men will not serve the king of Babylon.” 10 For falsehood is what they are prophesying to YOU, for the purpose of having YOU taken far away from off YOUR ground; and I shall have to disperse YOU, and YOU will have to perish.
11 “‘“‘And as for the nation that will bring its neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon and actually serve him, I will also let it rest upon its ground,’ is the utterance of Jehovah, ‘and it will certainly cultivate it and dwell in it.’”’”
12 Even to Zed·e·ki´ah the king of Judah I spoke according to all these words, saying: “Bring YOUR necks under the yoke of the king of Babylon and serve him and his people and keep on living. 13 Why should you yourself and your people die by the sword, by the famine and by the pestilence according to what Jehovah has spoken to the nation that does not serve the king of Babylon? 14 And do not listen to the words of the prophets that are saying to YOU men, ‘YOU will not serve the king of Babylon,’ because falsehood is what they are prophesying to YOU.
15 “‘For I have not sent them,’ is the utterance of Jehovah, ‘but they are prophesying in my name falsely, to the end that I shall disperse YOU, and YOU will have to perish, YOU men and the prophets that are prophesying to YOU.’”
16 And to the priests and to all this people I spoke, saying: “This is what Jehovah has said, ‘Do not listen to the words of YOUR prophets that are prophesying to YOU, saying: “Look! The utensils of the house of Jehovah are being brought back from Babylon soon now!” For falsehood is what they are prophesying to YOU. 17 Do not listen to them. Serve the king of Babylon and keep on living. Why should this city become a devastated place? 18 But if they are prophets and if the word of Jehovah does exist with them, let them, please, beseech Jehovah of armies, that the utensils that are remaining over in the house of Jehovah and the house of the king of Judah and in Jerusalem may not come into Babylon.’
It's all right there. The city of Jerusalem did not have to be destroyed for the 70 years to be fufilled, all that was necessary was serving the king of Babylon.
The marginals on Daniel 5:26 were shocking to me when I first discovered them.
Daniel 5:26—“This is the interpretation of the word: ME´NE, God has numbered [the days of] your kingdom and has finished it.”
Was this referring to Babylon or Jerusalem? Here are the marginal references from the NWT.
Isaiah 13:11—And I shall certainly bring home [its own] badness upon the productive land, and their own error upon the wicked themselves. And I shall actually cause the pride of the presumptuous ones to cease, and the haughtiness of the tyrants I shall abase.
Jeremiah 25:12—“‘And it must occur that when seventy years have been fulfilled I shall call to account against the king of Babylon and against that nation,’ is the utterance of Jehovah, ‘their error, even against the land of the Chal·de´ans, and I will make it desolate wastes to time indefinite.
Jeremiah 27:7—And all the nations must serve even him and his son and his grandson until the time even of his own land comes, and many nations and great kings must exploit him as a servant.’
Jeremiah 50:1—The word that Jehovah spoke concerning Babylon, concerning the land of the Chal·de´ans, by means of Jeremiah the prophet:
Jeremiah 51:11—“Polish the arrows. Fill the circular shields, O men. Jehovah has aroused the spirit of the kings of the Medes, because it is against Babylon that his idea is, in order to bring her to ruin. For it is the vengeance of Jehovah, the vengeance for his temple.
The 70 years was referring to Babylon. That was the number of days for its kingdom.
The 70 years was referring to Babylon. That was the number of days for its kingdom.
The society even admits this:
*** ip-1 chap. 19 p. 253 par. 21 Jehovah Profanes the Pride of Tyre ***
Jehovah, through Jeremiah, includes Tyre among the nations that will be singled out to drink the wine of His rage. He says: "These nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years." (Jeremiah 25:8-17, 22, 27) True, the island-city of Tyre is not subject to Babylon for a full 70 years, since the Babylonian Empire falls in 539 B.C.E. Evidently, the 70 years represents the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination—when the Babylonian royal dynasty boasts of having lifted its throne even above "the stars of God." (Isaiah 14:13) Different nations come under that domination at different times. But at the end of 70 years, that domination will crumble. What will then happen to Tyre?
It's amazing reading this account from Isaiah's Prophecy
The WTS cites the specific language about Tyre in the Bible:
*** ip-1 chap. 19 p. 253 Jehovah Profanes the Pride of Tyre ***Despite plain language that Tyre will be "forgotten seventy years", the Society still applies the literal 70 years to Babylon's "greatest domination" and not to Tyre's desolation.
"She Must Return to Her Hire"
21Isaiah goes on to prophesy: "It must occur in that day that Tyre must be forgotten seventy years, the same as the days of one king." (Isaiah 23:15a) Following the destruction of the mainland city by the Babylonians, the island-city of Tyre will "be forgotten." True to the prophecy, for the duration of "one king"—the Babylonian Empire—the island-city of Tyre will not be an important financial power.
We could easily rewrite that to refer to Judah, one of the other nations under Babylonian domination:
Jehovah, through Jeremiah, includes Judah among the nations that will be singled out to drink the wine of His rage. He says: "These nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years." (Jeremiah 25:8-17, 22, 27) True, the kingdom of Judah is not subject to Babylon for a full 70 years, since it comes under its sway in 605 B.C.E. and the Babylonian Empire falls in 539 B.C.E. Evidently, the 70 years represents the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination—when the Babylonian royal dynasty boasts of having lifted its throne even above "the stars of God." (Isaiah 14:13) Different nations come under that domination at different times. But at the end of 70 years, that domination will crumble. What will then happen to Judah?
yeah, with less difficulty, even!
the Babylonian Empire falls in 539 B.C.E. Evidently, the 70 years represents the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination—when the Babylonian royal dynasty boasts of having lifted its throne even above "the stars of God." (Isaiah 14:13)
Let's do the math on how long "Bablylonia's greatest domination" lasted.
There's no question about 539 being the END of "Babylonia's greatest domination".
And I assume that the Society implies that Babylon was lifted above "the stars of God" when it destroyed Jerusalem, in "607 BCE".
Here we go: "607" - 539 = ooops! only 68.
...so then I suppose that one would HAVE to conclude that the START of "Babylonia's greatest domination" came BEFORE the destruction of Jerusalem!
You have a pm.