Murder?

by Rex B13 17 Replies latest jw friends

Rex B13

Hi Kent (and his cadre' of loyal red berets!),
Was F.D.R. a murderer, no, a mass murderer? How about Churchill, Isenhower, Montgomery, Macarther, Patton, Bradley, De Gaulle, Napoleon, King Richard I, Julius Caesar, Alexander and so on?
Millions died at some of their commands. Many others fell by the rest.
Millions were saved by their ordering this to happen!
'Suckling babies' died, all to give classless hedonists like you a safe, comfy life in which you judge not only everyone around you but also God!
The world fought a 'just war' where people died screaming in the flames of Dresden (and numerous other cities in Germany and the rest of Europe), Nagasaki and Hiroshima.
There would most probably not be a Jew alive today if not for REAL CHRISTIANS who fought and died for all of us.
The leaders of the Axis countries were allowed by their citizens to commit atrocities upon the innocent. The citizens received what their silence allowed. Their LEADERS were at fault, but so were they.
THEY ALL caused the death of their own children!
Don't pretend that you are any better than or less of a hypocrite than anyone else. Don't pretend you can judge God by a few verses of text.
Rex
JT

rex says:
THEY ALL caused the death of their own children
#####which is really an excellent point , but he failed to mention "ONE LITTLE DETAIL"
All the while this killing was going on "YOUR GOD" was Watching it happen-
i recall the greatest question that i used to ask folks as a jw and it never dawned on me how silly it sounded- it went something like this:
"If you had the power to stop suffering would you do it?" and of course a Normal thinking person would for the most part say yes
yet we never asked the "Kicker question" and that is according to most belief systems who is the ONLY ONE who can++ GOD
and yet he doesn't--- instead he watches women, litttle girls and men be raped repeatly in some lands till death and does nothing- yet he is SUPPOSE to be the only one who can
let me ask you a question- if you walked out your front door and across the street you see the guy reading the paper and his 12 yr old son takes a bat and begins to beat his 5yr old baby sister in the head till she is dead and the father merely looked up and continued to read the sports section
would you consider this guy a good parent?
for a "GOD" to allow when with the snap of a finger could have save somewhere around 20billions folks the pain and suffering that all will exp be it old age sickness or murder- sound kinda suspect to me
james
Rex B13

You ask a question only God can answer.
We were given a perfect world.
We blew it.
Why create individual beings with 'free will' who will end up as depraved as we are? I don't know and no one else does.
That is not an argument against the existence of God. I don't honestly believe that any of you who profess agnosticism or atheism have given REAL Christianity a chance.
We arrogantly think that our own logic and reasoning can lead us to understand the infinite. We still believe the slander about Christinaity that the Borg spews.
BTW, you ignored a lot of my arguments to spout your own. Try addressing what I wrote instead of hijacking the thread.
Later,
Rex
TR

Rex B13,
Some of these men were murderers, some where not. When evil happens, someone has to step up to the plate for our defense. Sometimes a good offense is the best defense. War is hell, ain't it. You can't discount what JT said: Where was God?
TR
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
—Edmund Burke
JT

REX says:
BTW, you ignored a lot of my arguments to spout your own. Try addressing what I wrote instead of hijacking the thread
######
If you read my post you would have seen that i agreed with you that thier actions would make them murders- my only point was you want to make an exception for the only person who is suppose to be able to stop murder
i also noted that you did not address the illustration i gave you and most believers don't - for the implications are too much for thier belief systems
you claim to worship a god who is the only one who can stop pain- yet he does not -
your belief systems requires that you come up with "some" explanation because in one breath you have stated he is a god of love - yet all can see clearly how unloving it is to allow innicent persons to suffer -
another illustration for you- 23 kids are locked up in a day care, a fire starts- no one has a key but Frank, he merely stands there while everyone else is trying to break windows and knock down doors
did frank start the fire - no
did frank try to stop anyone from helping the kids- no
but who in that town upon learning that old Frank had the only set of keys to open the door and he didn't
well that is the same position your god is in according to your beleif system- for a few 1000yrs he has stood by and watch the kids burn up as it were- while others are running around trying to help
FEED THE CHILDREN, CANCER RESEARCH, SETTING UP OLD FOLKS HOMES, HELPING THE RETARDED, ETC and yet your god is suppose to have the key in his pocket that can release all these folks from their pain and suffering yet he chills out and drinks Lipton Iced Tea on the front porch instead
sorry charlie
james
SixofNine

Wrecks said:
You ask a question only God can answer.
We were given a perfect world.
We blew it.
I think the only ones "blowing it" are idiots who refuse to reason on God. I might just point out the truly odd thing about that: they would be honoring God by using their reasoning ability, if they ever chose to do so.
Your false respect for God is wearing thin, Wrecks. You worship the Bible.
Rex B13

Some are murderers, some aren't? That's your answer? LOL
C'mon 1, where is your reasoning now? Can't you see that all are leaders who made decisions?
Who is responsible for the deaths of millions, Hirohito and Hitler (and their people) or FDR and Churchill? My analogy is the closest one to the Amalekite question and you refuse to admit it or deal with it, as usual. You like pointed questions but don't like them turned on you.
If you can rest with that, that's ok. I understand. You have to stick to your new world view to keep peace of mind....whether it's fantasy or not.
>another illustration for you- 23 kids are locked up in a day care, a fire starts- no one has a key but Frank, he merely stands there while everyone else is trying to break windows and knock down doors
did frank start the fire - no
did frank try to stop anyone from helping the kids- no
but who in that town upon learning that old Frank had the only set of keys to open the door and he didn't
Ah, but old Frank DID open a door!
It's called the 'cross', the messiah, God taking on flesh so that all who are called can take on eternal life in heaven instead of damnation in hell. We have all that we need to understand and make our decision right now. You refuse to see it, so be it.
>well that is the same position your god is in according to your beleif system- for a few 1000yrs he has stood by and watch the kids burn up as it were- while others are running around trying to help
FEED THE CHILDREN, CANCER RESEARCH, SETTING UP OLD FOLKS HOMES, HELPING THE RETARDED, ETC and yet your god is suppose to have the key in his pocket that can release all these folks from their pain and suffering yet he chills out and drinks Lipton Iced Tea on the front porch instead
The world and its conditions are a result of mankind's separation from God. There is hope and your analogy is again in error. Who do you think is behind; FEED THE CHILDREN, CANCER RESEARCH, OLD FOLKS HOMES, HELPING THE RETARDED, ETC.? Christians in huge numbers.
The key is Jesus Christ and He is knocking on YOUR door right now!
NIV Revelation 3:20-21
20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.
21 To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.
NIV Romans 3:22-24
22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
So, all are sinners and fall short of God's glory, which means eternal separation from Him. But just what is this grace, justification and redemption?
NIV Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Death is usually pictured as hell or eternal separation from God. It is not just a physical death as some would have you believe. How is it that we recieve this gift of eternal life?
NIV Romans 10:9-10
9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
Is this really all that it takes to gain eternal life?
NIV John 3:15-17
15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.
16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
Do we really believe on Christ if we dismiss Him as some arch-angel who is less than God? Think about it. Did you know that the reason that believers were called 'Christians' is because they WORSHIP Christ as God?
Is Jesus really the only way to life?
NIV John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Anyone can gain salvation, all they have to do is ask Jesus with heartfelt prayer!
NIV Revelation 3:20
20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.
Can we be saved by our own works, even in some future era as some speculate?
NIV Titus 3:5-7
5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth (being 'born again' -John 3.3, or as a 'new creation' )and renewal by the Holy Spirit,
6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.
NIV Ephesians 2:4-10
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead (eternally dead and separated from God!) in transgressions--it is by grace (undeserved kindness) you have been saved.
6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves (NOT from our own works!), it is the gift of God--
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
10 For we are God's workmanship, (a new creation) created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance (predestined) for us to do.
Our good works are an evidence of our faith and our salvation, they do not gain us salvation as that is by grace! How rich and merciful is our God? Remember the thief on the cross?
41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."
42 Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom. "
43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
Here is another proof that the soul is immortal, our Lord clearly promised this man 'paradise' (Hebrew understanding of 'heaven' or the afterlife) on that very day that he died! This is not some future event and it is not resurrection (adding the spiritual body to our bodiless souls).
sorry charlie
Kent

Rex, I thought you were smarter than that. What has these people got to do with anything? If they're not god, I mean - and if so, please tell us WHOM of them is god.
Yakki Da
Kent
The most significant difference between Prime Minister John Howard and Hitler, is the fact that Hitler is dead.
Daily News On The Watchtower and the Jehovah's Witnesses:
http://watchtower.observer.org
JT

Rex
thank you for your post- actually i was hoping you would respond the way you did- I Had some friends over to the house and we we discussing your post. It truly shows the problem that believers have. You guys really don't know your audience. You posted a dozen or so bible text to make your point, which is fine if your audience accepts your bible. I don't accept the bible beyond being the writing of some dudes who lived out in the desert who needed to do something with their time. While I have no problem with you believing anything you want to- if it gets you thru your day great,but to believe that everyone who doesn't share your belief system will die or somehow thier life is not as complete as yours in my view is sad.
For me to assume that a persons life is only complete if they believe as me is truly sad. I fully understand your belief system-- IT REQUIRES that you look down on others- you have no choice -that is one of the requirements of most belief systems in fact.
Like i said i thank you for your post
james
jayhawk1

Rex, allow me to quote you.
We were given a perfect world. We blew it.

I was not there, so why should I pay for somebody else's sin? As I see it God must like to see people die or at least want people to die at some point. Why not let Adam and Eve die and every body else live forever if that is want God wanted?
"Hand me that whiskey, I need to consult the spirit."-J.F. Rutherford

Murder?

Share this