Failed bible proficies?

by SickofLies 21 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  SickofLies

  Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. 1985. Life--How Did It Get Here? Brooklyn, NY, pp. 216-223.

  "The Bible contains many prophecies that have accurately been fulfilled, proving it is a divine source."

  There are several mundane ways in which a prediction of the future can be fulfilled:

  1. Retrodiction. The "prophecy" can be written or modified after the events fulfilling it have already occurred.
  2. Vagueness. The prophecy can be worded in such a way that people can interpret any outcome as a fulfillment. Nostradomus's prophecies are all of this type. Vagueness works particularly well when people are religiously motivated to believe the prophecies.
  3. Inevitability. The prophecy can predict something that is almost sure to happen, such as the collapse of a city. Since nothing lasts forever, the city is sure to fall someday. If it has not, it can be said that according to prophecy, it will.
  4. Denial. One can claim that the fulfilling events occurred even if they have not. Or, more commonly, one can forget that the prophecy was ever made.
  5. Self-fulfillment. A person can act deliberately to satisfy a known prophecy.

  There are no prophecies in the Bible that cannot easily fit into one or more of those categories. In biblical times, prophecies were not simply predictions. They were warnings of what could or would happen if things did not change. They were meant to influence people's behavior. If the people heeded the prophecy, the events would not come to pass; Jonah 3 gives an example. A fulfilled prophecy was a failed prophecy, because it meant people did not heed the warning. Other religions claim many fulfilled prophecies, too.

  Other people would also argue that divinity is not shown by miracles. The Bible itself says true prophecies may come elsewhere than from God (Deut. 13:1-3), as may other miracles (Exod. 7:22, Matt. 4:8). Some people say that to focus on proofs is to miss the whole point of faith (John 20:29).

  The Bible also contains failed prophecies, in the sense that things God said would happen did not (Skeptic's Annotated Bible n.d.). For example:

  • Joshua said that God would, without fail, drive out the Jebusites and Canaanites, among others (Josh. 3:9-10). But those tribes were not driven out (Josh. 15:63, 17:12-13).
  • Ezekiel said Egypt would be made an uninhabited wasteland for forty years (29:10-14), and Nebuchadrezzar would plunder it (29:19-20). Neither happened.

  I would like to know if anyone else knows of any other proficies in the bible that have not come true (expecially internal bible proficies), also what are some proficies that have multiple fullfilments through out history (as Daniel's proficies clearly do). I would be sincerely interested in your replies as I am planning on writing a book on the subject (actually the subject is evolution, but will contain parts about the bible and creationism).
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  peacefulpete

  Really many later prophecies are simply reinterpretations of earlier unfullfilled ones. For instance the Gospel writers, Paul and the writer of Revelation reinterpreted Daniel and Isaiah so as to allow for a yet future fullfillment when the intended meaning of the original texts failed to occur. In turn, the writer of Daniel was really reinterpreting Jeremiah's 70 years as 70 weeks (using Lev 26's 7 fold edict) so as to hold on to hopes of Israel's glorification as predicted by him and Isaiah. In turn, when the Gospels, Paul and Revelation failed to occur "immediately" or "soon" as promised later generations of Christaians reinterpreted them as having a yet future or spiritual only fullfillment. We see this process in the deuteroPauline books, Petrine epistles and early redaction of the works themselves. This dogged insistance continues to this day 2,800 years after the original expectations of Israelite ascendancy failed.
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  tmo1965

  It has been my experience that when people try to disprove the Bible, they are just repeating what they read or were told without verifying the info. Keep in mind too that sometimes when the Bible says something like "utterly destroyed" it is using figures of speech, much like today we may say we have a million things to do.

  I know that when some people hear info like this it re-enforces the belief that the Bible is not true, but as time goes on I have found that Bible really is true. For instance, the Bible predicted that in the end times God would gather the Jewish people from all over the world where they were scattered and return them to Israel as their home. It's truly amazing that after ~1800 years, the Zionist movement began, in 1948 Israel was recognized as a sovereign nation, and in 1967 the Jews gained control of Jerusalem. All of this was prophesied over 2000 years before it happened. Also, I can't think of any other group that has returned to claim their "homeland" after so many years. This is a truly miraclious event. There are other passages in the Bible that were impossible to be fulfilled at the time they were written, but are now are possible due to technology. How could anyone predict something that no one could have thought possible at the time except that it's a true prophecy from God.

  For example, in Revelation 11:9 it refers to the 2 witnesses who will prophecy in Jerusalem for 3 1/2 years, after which they will be killed:

  "For three and a half days men from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial."

  Concerning the Ezekiel prophecy you mentioned, there is a cuneform in the British Museum that implies that the prophecy was fulfilled.

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nebuchadnezzar_II_of_Babylon
  
  It would appear that following the pacification of Tyre, Nebuchadrezzar turned again to Egypt. A clay tablet, now in the British Museum, bears the following inscription referring to his wars:
  
  "In the 37th year of Nebuchadrezzar, king of the country of Babylon, he went to Mitzraim (Egypt) to make war. Amasis, king of Egypt, collected [his army], and marched and spread abroad."

  Before you write a book on how false the Bible is, you really need to do a lot of research to see if your point of view holds out.
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  peacefulpete

  tmo read:Egypt, back from the dead?

  And as far as your spin on Revelation and the modern state of Israel, it illustrates my first comment perfectly.
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  AlmostAtheist

  When I was first coming to grips with the fact that I thought the Bible was a load of fairy tales, I thought that the prophecies at least ought to be given some consideration. So I dug out the Reasoning book and looked up the "messianic" prophecies. One by one I looked these buggers up and read them in the Bible. I found that they weren't prophecies at all, just words yanked out of context and applied to Jesus. The maiden giving birth, the garments divvied up, no bones broken, no reed will he crush. It's all crap. None of it was meant to indicate someone was coming along later, it had meaning then, when it was written. Someone came along later and tried to apply those scriptures to their Jesus, but that's not at all the same thing.

  Not exactly a failed prophecy, more of a fraudulent attempt to strangle "prophecy" out of a very big book. Not hard, really. Look at all the ways the writings of Nostradamus get applied.

  Dave
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  tmo1965

  If a person wishes to explain away fulfilled prophecy they can by using any variety of broad logical arguements, as you have done in your 1st post. Fact is that the Bible is very clear about the Jews returning to Israel after a worldwide dispersion.

  Examples (there's many more of those) Here is a good site that goes into more detail: http://www.aboutbibleprophecy.com/

  Isaiah 43 5 Do not be afraid, for I am with you; I will bring your children from the east and gather you from the west.
  6 I will say to the north, `Give them up!' and to the south, `Do not hold them back.' Bring my sons from afar and my daughters from the ends of the earth--

  Jeremiah 23
  3 "I myself will gather the remnant of my flock out of all the countries where I have driven them and will bring them back to their pasture, where they will be fruitful and increase in number.
  4 I will place shepherds over them who will tend them, and they will no longer be afraid or terrified, nor will any be missing," declares the LORD.
  Ezekiel 20
  34 I will bring you from the nations and gather you from the countries where you have been scattered--with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm and with outpoured wrath.

  
  
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  tmo1965

  When I was first coming to grips with the fact that I thought the Bible was a load of fairy tales, I thought that the prophecies at least ought to be given some consideration. So I dug out the Reasoning book and looked up the "messianic" prophecies. One by one I looked these buggers up and read them in the Bible. I found that they weren't prophecies at all, just words yanked out of context and applied to Jesus. The maiden giving birth, the garments divvied up, no bones broken, no reed will he crush. It's all crap. None of it was meant to indicate someone was coming along later, it had meaning then, when it was written. Someone came along later and tried to apply those scriptures to their Jesus, but that's not at all the same thing.

  Not exactly a failed prophecy, more of a fraudulent attempt to strangle "prophecy" out of a very big book. Not hard, really. Look at all the ways the writings of Nostradamus get applied.

  The prophecies about Jesus were not "yanked out of context". It's clear that many are referring to the Messiah. Consider the odds:

  http://www.messianic-prophecy.net/

  I find it interesting that people are all to quick to dismiss Biblical history but they have no problem believing whatever any secular historian tells them. How do we know that the Roman Empire really existed? None of us were there to see it.
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  The Chuckler

  I'd say it was more like a fictional Godman was made to act as if he had fulfilled prophesy.

  How do we know that the Roman Empire really existed? ; None of us were there to see it.

  If you use that line of reasoning I'm surprised that you have faith in a collection of copies of ancient Middle Eastern books which clearly have no bearing on the present.
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  peacefulpete

  I'll take "broad logical arguments" over narrow illogical ones.
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  SickofLies

  tmo, I found your posts very interesting. Trust me, I am researching my book very carefully, however, to be sure your argument about just repeating what you've read or heard can be said about anything. I believe my arguments have some originality to them, if you find other wise, please let me know. But in so far as the prophecy of the Jews returning to Iserial in modern times, I'm afraid I don't follow. I know Jesus talked about Jerusalem being destroyed, but where does it say that it will be rebuilt afterwards. While I agree that Iseral is still in Jerusalem, they are the most target group in the world for hate crimes and terroism, does that mean they are the true religion?