When do you think WTBS became a cult?

by lighthouse1956 29 Replies latest jw friends

  • James Free
    James Free
    Now, if that challenges a Jehovah's Witness and causes discomfort for him or her, then I believe that’s totally appropriate. Sometimes, you just can't sugar coat something in an attempt to win someone over.

    I guess it depends on your motive. Personally, I see little to gain from causing 'discomfort'. That is a quick way to cause them to raise their defenses and stop listening.

    If, on the other hand, you want to help people to see for themselves that they are being deceived there are better ways than name-calling to get the point across. Also, the term cult means different things to different people, so often all that is left is its negative, attacking, connotation.

    The Org. uses this sort of tactic every day, branding 'apostates' as 'immoral', 'evil' and so on. It's not right for them and it's not right for us - well that's my opinion anyway.

  • geevee
    geevee

    James Free, yes we want to avoid using WTS tactics. Have you read Crisis of Conscience? Check out the WTS tactics there. Have you read the book[s] by Steven Hassan on Combatting Cult Mind Control? I think that the book is well worth considering, and then make up your own mind as to whether it is a cult or not.
    JWFacts, I think one of the greatest perpetrators that is missing from the list is FRED FRANZ. The guy must have been some kind of control freak. Imagine an old single guy deciding on whether oral sex is OK or not. Or that masturbation leads to homosexuality....this guy decided most of the major policy that still entraps many today. Most of the "new light" is his old light mushed up again.
    Plus Franz goes all the way back. I have no doubt that Rutherford had a huge part in the forming of controlling policy. What a wet blanket he must have been, no one bought him a decent birthday present so he outlawed it. And Russelll, how did he die again? 2 years after two failed end times he dies on a train.....conveniently, he didn't have to live with his shame.

  • diamondblue1974
    diamondblue1974
    If becoming a "cult" means trying to follow Christian standards set forth in the the Holy Bible as closely as humanly possible, then I would say right from the very beginning as Bible Students in Pennsylvania. I think the word "cult" is being used too liberally on this chat. Let's all look up the word in Funk and Wagnall's.

    For me the authority on the subject has to be Steven Hassan; http://www.freedomofmind.com Consider objectively after reading more about how cults operate rather than a limited one sided view; You will be surprised! DB74

  • Mary
    Mary
    mariarybrests said: If becoming a "cult" means trying to follow Christian standards set forth in the the Holy Bible as closely as humanly possible, then I would say right from the very beginning as Bible Students in Pennsylvania. I think the word "cult" is being used too liberally on this chat.
    LOL! No, the word "cult" does not mean anything of the kind and only someone who's trying to defend their cult of a religion would say something so ridiculous. If you look up "cult" on Wikipedia, it will tell you the following:
    Definition of "cult" in dictionaries

    The Merriam-Webster online dictionary lists five different meanings of the word "cult" 32 . This article quotes the 3rd definition:

    1. a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents

    Similarly, the Random House dictionary's 3rd and 4th definitions are:

    1. a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist
    2. the members of such a religion or sect.

    Secular cult opponents define a "cult" as a religious or non-religious group that tends to manipulate, exploit, and control its members. Here two definitions by Michael Langone and Louis Jolyon West, scholars who are widely recognized among the secular cult opposition:

    Cults are groups that often exploit members psychologically and/or financially, typically by making members comply with leadership's demands through certain types of psychological manipulation, popularly called mind control, and through the inculcation of deep-seated anxious dependency on the group and its leaders. 1
    "A cult is a group or movement exhibiting a great or excessive devotion or dedication to some person, idea or thing and employing unethically manipulative techniques of persuasion and control (e.g. isolation from former friends and family, debilitation, use of special methods to heighten suggestibility and subservience, powerful group pressures, information management, suspension of individuality or critical judgement, promotion of total dependency on the group and fear of [consequences of] leaving it, etc) designed to advance the goals of the group's leaders to the actual or possible detriment of members, their families, or the community."
  • Steve Lowry
    Steve Lowry

    "I guess it depends on your motive. Personally, I see little to gain from causing 'discomfort'. That is a quick way to cause them to raise their defenses and stop listening. If, on the other hand, you want to help people to see for themselves that they are being deceived there are better ways than name-calling to get the point across. Also, the term cult means different things to different people, so often all that is left is its negative, attacking, connotation. The Org. uses this sort of tactic every day, branding 'apostates' as 'immoral', 'evil' and so on. It's not right for them and it's not right for us - well that's my opinion anyway."

    Perhaps we’ll just have to agree to disagree agreeably on the point you're making. That said, I believe in the right tool for the right job. Would I walk up to a JW and tell him coldly, "Hey man, you’re in a cult, get out!" No, of course not. But if in a rational conversation the term ‘cult’ came up, then yea, I would tell him that by today’s definition of a cult, his group qualifies to be referred to as such and I would go about explaining those reasons. He IS in a cult and he needs to understand that. Understanding that could save his life or his children’s lives someday (blood transfusion). Conversely, if he (JW) were to ask me in a conversation if I believed his religion was cultic by the nature of its ideologies, should I deny what I believe to be the truth and say no? Of course not.

    I have a dear friend who is in denial about her smoking and doesn’t want to quit. So, when I bring it up, I tell her that smoking will most likely give her cancer and I explain in detail how that happens and what it would be like to have the illness (as I have researched it). Discomfort, can be a very effective tool in helping people see the self-destructive actions they are perpetrating on themselves. Don’t make the mistake of underestimating this principle. It works, and I have experienced it in my own life as well.

    Now as I understand it, this website is primarily for the former JW (at least that is my experience here). Ergo, people who have been hurt by the Watchtower Society who need to vent and grow through the pain of separating themselves from the group, should be able to feel free to express themselves as they wish. It’s a natural part of the detachment from a cult process. Now, if an active JW comes to such a site as this and he/she is offended by what he/she reads, then such a person should learn quickly this may not be the site for them. But I have read many testimonies where once active JW’s have come to websites such as this one and have had their eyes opened, and not by coddling and sugar coating of the issues but by seeing in clear vision what the outside world (and former members) thinks about their religion.

    Its not about name calling for me, its about being honest and up front about what the WBTS is. It is one of the most destructive so-called religions today, that have managed to undermine the family unit and has caused unbelievable suffering for many of those who have left the group. It continues to sacrifice its children to its absurd ideology regarding its ban on blood transfusions. It is completely heretical in its "theology" and has twisted major cardinal doctrine to tailor fit its own ideologies (Jesus, Heaven, Hell, etc). What would you call such a group? I call it, a cult.

  • Honesty
    Honesty
    If becoming a "cult" means trying to follow Christian standards set forth in the the Holy Bible as closely as humanly possible, then I would say right from the very beginning as Bible Students in Pennsylvania. I think the word "cult" is being used too liberally on this chat. Let's all look up the word in Funk and Wagnall's.

    That must be why the IBSA referred to Charles Taze Russell (you know, the guy who measured the inner passages of the Great Pyramid in Giza, Egypt and came up with 1874 1914 as the date for Christ's invisble return) as the Faithful Discreet Slave.

    BTW, Welcome to the board.

    Pull up a chair and stay awhile. Before you know it you will an ex-JW just like the rest of us.

  • DannyHaszard
    DannyHaszard

    [Quote] If I have any contact with xxxx xxxxx i will then be justifing his ungodly lifestyle,i cannot allow his behavior to endanger my spirituality.[unquote] Quote from the Watchtower? SURPRISE It's from a member of the "Roberts group" another cult that practices shunning MAINSTREAM >SECTS >CULTS Faith based belief systems fall mostly into 3 categories: 1 ."mainstream" mostly benevolent in my observation i.e. you go to services once a week socialize 2.the "sects" sort of on the fringes 3. the CULTS destructive, high demand,high control often apocalyptic How are cults destructive? they destroy A). identity B). sanity C). bank account The above is my opinion.What does the Bible (Jesus) say?Jesus tells us how to determine the malevolence/benevolence Matthew 7:15-16 "be on the watch for the false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing but inside they are ravenous wolves"by their FRUITS you will know them" The fruitage of the Watchtower it is rotten to the core! GROUND ZERO Jehovah's Witnesses Millerite mutation right down to the very month. Always do a regression analysis just where did 1914 come from? Time sneered that it was a "Great Disappointment." Nevertheless, millennial expectations persisted, leading to Seventh-day Adventism and the Jehovah's Witnesses .. Read from this newspaper article: The problem with Millennialism Naples Daily News, FL In 19th-century America the preacher William Miller was persuaded that the Second Coming of Christ would take place on the night of Oct. 22, 1844. When Jesus failed to keep that date, newspapers of the time sneered that it was a "Great Disappointment." Nevertheless, millennial expectations persisted, leading to Seventh-day Adventism and the Jehovah's Witnesses."
    --------------
    There you have it folks backup confirmation that Jehovah's Witnesses are "mutated millerites" a spinoff of second adventist. LOOK and open your eyes!! Why even the "Armageddon will come in month of October" false prophecy time line comes from William Miller a civil war army captain. Growing up born a JW I have heard/read that Armaggedon will come in "October" at least a hundred times,(World War one started and Satan cast out in "October") There is nothing that made me gasp in horror of all WT/JW falsehoods more then this finding that it all came from the Millerite movement! Yes,the "great disappointment" of Oct 22 1844 has never falted... it lives on in the Seventh day Adventist (who admit it) AND the Jehovah's Witnesses who deny it Must see video clip http://www.dannyhaszard.com/cultvideos.htm
    The Millerites: Armageddon (History Channel) 4 min clip
    This is the highly credible HISTORY CHANNEL (Roger Mudd) not the "apostates" exposing Jehovah's Witnesses as a spin-off of the William Miller movement of 1844 Matthew 24:35- " Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. Growing up lifelong Jehovah's Witness from a devout family.This declaration by Jesus was applied to the Watchtower's1914 'generations' prophecy in talks and in WT written publications. MILLIONS of followers were heartened that no matter what,this 'prophecy' will come to pass. Ahhh,such utter blaspheme ----------- Watchtower Whistleblower: Danny Haszard Bangor Maine Jehovah's Witnesses are the'perfect storm' of deception-in a word they are the cult of Innuendo

  • Lady Lee
    Lady Lee

    Ok.There are two very different definitions of what the word "cult" means.

    The first (as posted above) is a religious defintion based on the groups beliefs. The beliefs must be out of the norm. I think the WTS under Russell falls into this category.

    Then Rutherford took over. He was the one who took the WTS from being a cult about beliefs to a cult based on behavior - how they dishonestly recruit new members, how they use control, manipulation and fear to maintain members and later punishment in the form of shunning those who leave.

    Two definitions - very different. I have yet to read anything suggesting the kinds of controls, fear, shunning, etc. while Russell was the president

  • james_woods
    james_woods

    Scientology may be a good analogy - started by L.Ron, he wrote several sensational books and made himself a cult leader as much as anyone did in the 1950-2000 era. It was his cult from the early 1950s even though it didn't get big until later. (Kind of like with Russell in the days before 1900).

    Then, when L.Ron is senile and making some really far-out pronouncements, a new face strongarms out the old guard and installs himself. It is done under questionable tactics. (Kind of like a Rutherford in the 1920-1935 era.)

    What I see here are both cults, started by singular personalities, then taken over by absolute control freaks and running their course. Of course, JWdom is about 70 years ahead of Scientology.

    I think they started as (leader worship) style cults but are both now migrating into nasty totalitarian regimes run by religious politburo types. This is due to the lack of truly charismatic leadership as the deterioration continues past the founders. What I don't understand is how anyone could look at what started each and what they have proven to be all about and still miss the teachings of Russell or Hubbard.

  • serendipity
    serendipity

    hi mariarybrests, welcome to the forum!

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