Angel of the Lord

by mdb 26 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • mdb

    You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
    Jn 5:39,40

    When Jesus said this to the Jews, the only Scriptures they had were the OT, so the Scriptures that testify of Jesus are the OT and He can be found in them.

    But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”
    Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.
    Jn 5:17

    Jesus made Himself equal with God; making Himself to be God. The Scriptures say that there is none like Him, His glory will be given to no other, only God shall receive worshiped, and beside Him there is no God - He knows not one.

    Was Jesus out of line by making such a claim as this – a claim to be equal with God and to be God (Emmanuel – God with us)?

    Now it came to pass after these things that God tested Abraham, and said to him, “Abraham!”
    And he said, “Here I am.”
    Then He said, “Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you.”
    Gen 22:1,2

    So, it was God that tested Abraham. The word of God says it, so it’s true because God does not lie, nor can He lie. God tested Abraham and is the One who said, “take your son and offer him.” Let’s take a close look at Gen 22:11,12,18.

    But the Angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!”
    So he said, “Here I am.”
    And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”
    Gen 22:11,12

    In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.”
    Gen 22:18

    Who was this Angel of the Lord? God tested Abraham, and it is the Angel of the Lord who said, “you have not withheld you son from Me” and “you have obeyed My voice.” Who did Abraham obey? Abraham obeyed God and the Angel of the Lord was the preincarnate Christ, the same Lord (yhwh) that introduced Himself to Abraham as Almighty God (Gen 17:1), talked and ate with Abraham under the tree in the heat of the day (Gen 18), and destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah (Gen 19:24).

    The Scriptures are amazing! As Jesus said, “You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.” (Jn 5:39,40) Jesus is found throughout the OT and they speak so loudly of Him. As Thomas rightfully believed and professed, He is truly our Lord and our God.

    Did you also know that Jesus is also called the Lord of hosts?

    In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above it stood seraphim; each one had six wings: with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. And one cried to another and said:
    “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts; [Jesus]
    The whole earth is full of His glory!”
    And the posts of the door were shaken by the voice of him who cried out, and the house was filled with smoke.
    So I said:
    “Woe is me, for I am undone!
    Because I am a man of unclean lips,
    And I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips;
    For my eyes have seen the King,
    The Lord of hosts.” [Jesus]
    Isaiah 6:1-5

    These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him. [refering to Jesus]
    Jn 12:41

    He has made the earth by His power;
    He has established the world by His wisdom,
    And stretched out the heaven by His understanding.

    The Portion of Jacob is not like them,
    For He is the Maker of all things;
    And Israel is the tribe of His inheritance.
    The Lord of hosts is His name. [Jesus]
    Jer 51:15,19

    In Jer 51:19, the Lord of hosts [Jesus] is call the Maker of all things (Heb 1:10; Ps 102:25).

    “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
    And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
    Heb 1:10 (Ps 102:25 - yhwh)

  • heathen

    Jesus was alot of things but he never claimed equality with the God of Israel or YHVH . He was the promised messiah and was given authority, not that he had it already . What happened with Abraham was the same deal that happened with jesus accept jesus was a perfect sacrifice to redeem mankind . Mathew 28:18 shows that jesus was given authority . The apostles also wrote that jesus was the first born of all creation , showing that he was created . That's one thing the WTBTS did have correct , there is no trinity . Of course they do create their own trinity , God , his word and organization ....................................... just to throw a blondie concept at ya there

  • mdb

    Then explain to me who the Angel of the Lord was. You failed to tell me. Who was it that Abraham obeyed: God, or the Angel of the Lord? The Angel of the Lord takes credit for saying something that the Scriptures very clearly say that God said. That's not an issue for you and your "Jesus is not God" belief?

    Must I remind you of the OT Scripture (yhwh speaking to Moses) that says, "you cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.”
    Exodus 33:20 This passage does not apply in the case of Genesis 22 because the Angel of the Lord called from heaven and did not physically appear to Abraham, but the Lord (yhwh) did appear to Abraham in Genesis 17,18 when He gave Abraham the promise of a son and destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog


    The apostles also wrote that jesus was the first born of all creation , showing that he was created . That's one thing the WTBTS did have correct

    You don't really believe that trash do you?

    It would not be wrong to say that God was the first born of all creation. In the bible The first born was not born first much of the time.

    D Dog

  • Narkissos

    Then who is the "angel of the Lord" in Matthew 1:20,24; 2:13,19; 28:2; Luke 1:11; 2:9?

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog


    Then who is the "angel of the Lord" in Matthew 1:20,24; 2:13,19; 28:2; Luke 1:11; 2:9?

    How bout "The angel of the Lord"?
  • Narkissos

    DD: nice try, but whereas some translations differentiate between "the angel of the Lord" and "an angel of the Lord" there is but one expression in Greek (LXX or NT): aggelos kuriou.

    The Gospels, especially the Nativity stories, conspicuously imitate the OT (LXX) style, where aggelos kuriou translates the Hebrew mal'akh Yhwh which implies a determined state ("the angel of Yhwh," not "an angel of Yhwh"). The Greek formula would only be ambiguous for people unaware of the basic convention that kurios stands for the divine name.

    My point is: while an "angel of the Lord" christology was possible (Philo already identifies his Logos / Son of God with the "angel of the Lord") and was eventually developed by later Christianity (e.g. Justin Martyr), it is generally avoided in the NT (with the possible exception of Stephen's discourse in Acts 7). The Gospel occurrences which I pointed to clearly show that the OT "angel of the Lord" was still available as a distinct character from Jesus.

  • heathen

    Deputy Dog---- I do believe that . I do not believe that jesus was the almighty nor is he today. Yes the word was with God as said in John 1:1-2 . It's entirely possible that the "angel" or messenger of the lord was jesus in his original station as Gods right hand man . I believe he was an angel or even possibly arch angel michael before being genetically altered into a human being . Jesus himself spoke of being in heaven with his father prior to an earthly existence .You really do have to ignore alot of evidence to conclude that jesus was God almighty . or that there is a trinity . I think jesus the angel was promoted to God after his ressurection . Isaiah 9:6

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog


    What are you talking about? I think we agree on this. Are you saying that when the bible says "angel of the Lord" it doesn't mean "angel of the Lord"?

    D Dog

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog


    Believe what ever you will. However firstborn does not mean born first.

    Israel is call God’s “firstborn”. Was Israel born?

    Exo 4:22 And you must say to Phar'aoh, 'This is what Jehovah has said: "Israel is my son, my firstborn.

    Does that mean Israel was the very first nation on earth?

    Similarly, was the nation of Ephraim called God’s firstborn in Jer 31:9.

    Was David the first son of his father, or the first king of the earth.

    Psa 89:27

    I will also appoint him my firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth.

    There are many other places where someone who was not physically born first, that held firstborn status (1 Chr 5:1-2; 26:10).

    D Dog

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