Discussion with my parents about WTS

by GBSJG 39 Replies latest jw friends



    After reading for a few months this is my first post here. I was raised a Jehovah's Witness by my parents who became JW's in the late '70s from field service. I'm still a JW but doing a lot of researching on the history of the WTS. If have read a lot about the UN scandal 607 vs 586, child abuse, blood doctrine and some chapters that are online from the book of Ray Franz.

    Recently I informed my parents about my findings after doing a lot of research. Before my parents became JW's they also did some extensive research they had read apostate literature to see if it really was the truth, they believe it is the truth. I started with the changing of the generations doctrine and said that I found it strange that they can change anything when they liked it. My parents said that they also had some diffculties at that time but that there where changes before and there will be more changes in the future.

    Next I started about the UN scandal of course they didn't know a thing about it and they didn't believe it so I showed them the UN website did a search for Watchtower and let them read the PDF file. They couldn't believe how stupid the WTS has been but said that the WTS is not inspired so they make mistakes but they admitted that this was a big one. My parents wonderd why this hasn't been in the news. So I said well it has been in other countries and to the world a connection between the WTS and the UN doens't seem that big a scandal as it is to JW.

    Then I started about 607, they knew that the WTS held a different date then most wordly sources, they believed that 607 was bible based. I actually send them a url to a apostate website that goes deeper into the appendix of the Kingdom come book. The archeological evidence is enormous and it also pointed out that 586 can be in harmony with the bible. After studying it my parents told me they couldn't explain the 20 year gap and all the evidence but that they understand why the WTS uses 607 and the bible to back it up and that they still believed it. Later I did some research about why we changed the date from 606 to 607 and show that to them. When they read that they concluded that 607 was probably wrong and also the prohepcy of seven times are wrong, but they still believe that we are living in the end.

    They have also read the proclaimers book so they knew about a lot of things already. They already knew about beth-sarim and pyramids although they didn't know about the pyramid at the grave yard of Russell. I showed them a chapter from Studies in the scriptures that went into great detail about the pyramids and 1914. My parents said that they weren't surprised about it and said that their believes where never based on calculations for numbers and that they don't think the WTS is correct on all those date calculations.

    Then I began about the WTS being Gods organisation and how can they then make so much mistakes. They said well the WTS doesn't say that they are inspired they only say that God's spirit is amongst them. They also said take a look at the preaching work that is being done to fullfil Matth 24:14 this cannot be done without an organisation. They see that as a prove that it is God's organisation. And of course Matt 24:45-47.

    For myself I'm not sure if it really is the truth, I am still examining all things and I enjoy the fact that I can openly discuss these things with my parents and of course I understand that they defend the WTS but they are still reasonable as you can see that they now no longer believe 607. I also discussed with them that they are JW but they do not believe all doctrines, they said well we do believe all the important ones.

    What are some more interresting points that I can discuss with them about the WTS?

  • KW13

    Well your doing it right, if you can openly chat like this then Good!

    Ask yourself, if they are the 'True' Org of God then why do they get things wrong and then lie about it?

    Welcome to the site mate!

  • cyberdyne systems 101
    cyberdyne systems 101

    Hi and welcome to the forum as a poster!

    Its certainly good that you can discuss things openly like this! I would say that should the elders hear about this it would be considered apostate, not saying this from the view point to scare anyone, but are Witnesses really alowed to openly discuss and disagree with the FDS? Although it is your own Christian conscience, from the Society's point of view they should control it. So are they really so good and innocent and truthful when they could well disfellowship someone for checking out their faith for themselves? Is it still the truth when your forced to conform to doctrine that is fallible and changable as you have found out? This is a sinister side to the WTS, to disagree with them could mean shunning by everyone you know in it, thats certainly something I would think about and maybe tactfully approach your parents with?

    CS 101

  • Spectre


    I would recommend reading all of Crisis of Conscience as your next step.


    My father used to be an elder so he knows what is considered apostate. I have also brought that up because I was suprised that they disagree with the WTS on some points. They said that as long as you believe the important doctrines and don't go talking about your doubts or alternative doctrines with others with the purpose to bring the WTS in a bad light it is not apostate or at least my parents don't consider it as begin apostate. They also said that they have discussed some other minor things with other JWs with who they feel they could talk about these things without undermining their faith in the WTS.

    I also said to them look I've been raised as a JW but now I want to find out for myself if it really is the truth and I said that if it is the truth it can withstand any attack even from apostates, they agreed with me. They only said be carefull because the goal of apostates is to get you away from WTS and they are influenced by Satan. But if I come with good arguments they are willing to discuss these with me. I also said that JWs expected from people who are in other religons to examine that "false"-religion and study with JWs, so that it's hypocrite that we may not do the same and they agreed.

    I noticed that my parents thinking is not always in line with WTS and I find that very interresting because they are convinced that WTS is the truth. My parents actually told me they where glad that I was doing some serious study about JWs and that I discussed my doubts with them.

  • deeskis

    Hi and welcome to the forum, glad you decided to post.

    I'd also recommend Ray Franz's book as he has some great thought provoking details, written in a loving, non bitter manner.

    other things that may be worth discussing is the changes in the blood policy, the paedophilia cover-ups, and the Mexico/Malawi hypocracy. Although sometimes it can be better to plant a few seeds, and take it slowly as too much could cause bad feeling between you.

    My parents have refused to believe the things I told them. ("lies spread by apostates"), and I'm cooling it just now rather than upsetting them more.

    hope it all works out for you

    Best wishes



    I want to read the entire Ray Franz book but then I would have to buy that book and somehow I have difficulties with that (buying literature that is considered apostate) and I don't like having a book in my house that I need to hide for some people that come etc etc, perhaps in the future I will buy it. At this time only my parents and my wife know about my research about the WTS.

    The Mexico Malawi incident I am aware of but I find it hard to find evidence for this to show to my parents. The evidence for the UN scandal is very easy since it's on the UN website itself.

    I also talked with my parents about the changes in de blood doctrine and how it can be that a human organisation makes such discions (about the blood fractions) that clearly don't have a biblical base. They already knew about the organ transplants doctrine changes, they said that they couldn't understand why it was forbidden because the bible clearly doesn't talk about organ transplants. I believe the reason was that the WTS considerd it to be a cannibal act, haven't discussed that with my parents yet. Usually when I mention such things they admit they don't know why the WTS does these things, and then they change the subject to all the other things the WTS has right (only religion that doesn't go to war etc..).

    I confronted my parents with all my findings in one evening that was an interresting evening I can tell you. Then I said let's discuss one thing at the a time and we started with 607 because that was the one they were most interrested in. So I researched it for myself and then showed the result to them and they researched it and came to the conclusion that 607 is probably wrong.

  • aniron
    I want to read the entire Ray Franz book but then I would have to buy that book and somehow I have difficulties with that (buying literature that is considered apostate) and I don't like having a book in my house that I need to hide for some people that come etc etc, perhaps in the future I will buy it. At this time only my parents and my wife know about my research about the WTS.

    I think that in the above quote you show already how much control the WT has over you.

    Who told you that Franzs book was apostate..the WT...they would wouldn't they? Why should you have to hide it? You're doing research. Which means you need to check out all sources. If researching anything else would you not look at a certain book because you didn't like the author?

    Whats the difference you having the book to you coming on this forum or checking other "apostate" websites?

    I was a JW for nearly 30 years. I wish that 30 years ago I had had the information you freely can look at now. I would not have spent the following years in slavery to the WT. Then having the agony in discovering that the WT had made false prophecies, changed doctrine and teachings through its history. Then having friends and family no longer speak to me because I decided no longer to live the lie.

    How fortunate you are to have it all now. Don't pass up the opportunity otherwise years from now you may deeply regret it.

  • freedomlover


    Wow! welcome to the board and may I say I'm impressed! With you and your parents for researching and them for listening to you.

    Keep up your researching. You are really doing an A+ job with that.

    Some suggestions in the past for people who couldn't order Franz' book was to go to the library and check it out and read it there on your lunch breaks. Or else you can have the book mailed to a friends house and then pick it up there. I truly encourage you to read it. It really helped me in trying to decide what to do with the truth after I had done all the research.

    Welcome to the board and I hope this place helps you as much as it's helped me!



    @aniron I know your right. There is no difference in reading about things on the internet or out of a book. What I'm trying to avoid is to have the elders on my back at this time. I will consider ordering the book.

    You said that you have been 30 years in the org and that there is so much more info available now. That is true and I wonder if my parents where coming in the organisation now and not in the '70s and they did their research with all information available today would they still have become JW?

    Untill a few months ago I never questioned the WTS. I was looking up various things using wikipedia and deciced to check out there artical about JW (I'm using wikipedia in my local language not the english one) and the article itself was very friendly altough it contained one paragraph called "critics" and below the article where some hyperlinks (to apostate sites) and I just couldn't resist. Then I read some things and tought this isn't true untill I saw some things that I could verify like the UN and also saw some letters and replies about the subject to WTS. Then I really got interrested and started to do a lot of research.

    Most scarring thing that I found out is that I believe that the WTS knows that 607 is wrong but they hold on to that date for various reasons (I think fear of losing members) and thus willingly withold the real truth to JWs. That made me wonder if they do it with 607 with what other things are they also not honest.

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