The Watchtower and John 10:16

by Honesty 10 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Honesty

    One only has to be aware of the relationship between a shepherd and his sheep to understand that the JW doctrine of 2 classes of Christians, one with a heavenly destiny and the other an earthly one is terribly flawed. So flawed in fact, that there is no way the upper echelon of the Watchtower Society can just be mistaken on this teaching. A quick search (less than 20 seconds) on the internet exposes the Faithful Discreet Slave doctrine for the lie it is as evidenced by the text below:

    A shepherd is one who takes care of sheep, usually in flocks in the fields. Shepherding is one of the oldest professions, beginning some 10,000 years ago in Asia Minor. Sheep were kept for their milk, meat, and especially their wool. Over the next millennia sheep and shepherding spread throughout Eurasia.

    Some sheep were integrated in the family farm along with other animals such as pigs and chickens. To maintain a large herd, however, the sheep must be able to move from pasture to pasture, this required the development of a profession separate from that of the farmer. The duty of shepherds was to keep their flock intact and protect it from predators, such as wolves. The shepherd was also to supervise the migration of the flock and ensured they made it to market areas in time for shearing. In ancient times shepherds also often milked their sheep, and made cheese from this milk.

    Comparing the above text with the context surrounding John 10:16 helps a person easily recognise that Jesus was referring to Jews and non-Jews and the future relationship all those who put faith in Him would enjoy.

    John 10:7-21 So Jesus said again, “ I assure you : I am the door of the sheep.

    All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep didn’t listen to them. I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved and will come in and go out and find pasture. A thief comes only to steal and to kill and to destroy. I have come that they may have life and have it in abundance. “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. The hired man, since he is not the shepherd and doesn’t own the sheep, leaves them and runs away when he sees a wolf coming. The wolf then snatches and scatters them. [This happens] because he is a hired man and doesn’t care about the sheep. “I am the good shepherd. I know My own sheep, and they know Me, as the Father knows Me, and I know the Father. I lay down My life for the sheep. But I have other sheep that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice. Then there will be one flock, one shepherd. This is why the Father loves Me, because I am laying down My life so I may take it up again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down on My own. I have the right to lay it down, and I have the right to take it up again. I have received this command from My Father.”

    Again a division took place among the Jews because of these words.

    Many of them were saying, “He has a demon and He’s crazy! Why do you listen to Him?” Others were saying, “These aren’t the words of someone demon-possessed. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?”
  • IP_SEC

    This is soooo obvious. I think 5 minutes alone with any dubya on this topic could get them to doubt the truth.

    The idiocy of this teaching is only surpassed by connecting the other sheep to the great crowd.

  • Honesty
    This is soooo obvious. I think 5 minutes alone with any dubya on this topic could get them to doubt the truth.

    The idiocy of this teaching is only surpassed by connecting the other sheep to the great crowd. IP_SEC

    Do you think it would take 5 minutes, IP? We must have been out of our minds to trust the Watchtower on any of their doctrines.

  • IP_SEC
    Do you think it would take 5 minutes, IP?

    Yes because I would ask questions and make them give me the answer themselves as to who the flocks are. I've already fantasized often about having the op to give them a go with this subject.

  • Honesty
    Yes because I would ask questions and make them give me the answer themselves as to who the flocks are.

    Can you imagine how they would react when the was turned on inside their heads?

  • IP_SEC

    I lived it so I can imagine it. I think this one point blew my mind the most. (doctrinally speaking that is)

  • Star Moore
    Star Moore

    I agree. But in the greater picture...It could be the Spiritual Jews verses the people of every tribe and tongue, the great crowd, who could be any religion, even an atheist..

    Like the Rev.7: 4...spiritual jews

    Rev, 7: 9 ....great crowd.

    Like a minor and a major fulfillment.......I believe that good people of all religions will make it...or even atheists....yet there seems to be another group that would fall into a spiritual Jew Paul said ...Gal. 3:29... "If you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham's seed" (his brothers)

  • Woodsman

    Here are some good questions IP-SEC,

    Wasn't Jesus sent to preach to the Jews, the lost sheep of Israel?-Yes

    Were the Gentile Christians sheep? -Yes

    So the Gentile Christians were other sheep?- Yes

    Did they join the Jewish Christian sheep and become one flock? -Yes

  • Narkissos
  • moggy lover
    moggy lover

    I am reminded of a conversation I had with a couple of JWs awhile back relating to this subject. It concerned the text at Eph 4:4, where Paul tells his readers about the ONE hope that is held out for those who are "in Christ" I asked them to explain to me how, in the light of this verse the WTS actually teaches TWO hopes as being held out. One heavenly, and the other earthly.The bloke became quite agitated at the suggestion that "God's Org" might be teaching something not in Scripture. "You see," he said there is only ONE hope. There is ONE hope - for the "anointed" - and ONE hope for the Other Sheep!!"

    "Oh come on" I gently chided - using the patois of the Trinity - One plus One is TWO not one!! Crikey! The poor bugger almost burst a blood vessel when he realised he was sounding illogical, even to himself!!

    Oddly enough, though, his wife seemed a trifle more intelligent. She gave me an explanation, which to a novice JW would have been wholly satisfying. She pointed out to me, as if to a mental retard, that Paul was not adressing the OS of today, since he was only referring to the one group, called the "anointed" She made a big score of the fact that Paul used the term "YOU" in Eph 4:4, not "US". If Paul had said "us" then, she conceded, there was a likelihood that the WTS could be wrong.

    This raised another problem. If the "YOU" at verse 4 only applied to the "anointed" then the same word, "You" which is used at verse 31, and which is part of the same context, does not apply to the OS. This of course means that the OS are no longer under an obligation to put away unsavoury social attitudes like abusive speech etc. The lady muttered something about vs 31 applying to the OS "In principle"

    Which raised another problem.What "Principle" is to be applied at verse 4? Evidently, the word "You" can be applied in principle to the OS at one place, but not another!!!

    As IPSEC [Yes it took about 5 mins] and Narkissos have pointed out, it is only by a deliberate manipulation of the text of Scripture, and an emptying of any meaning inherent in particular verses, that the WTS doctrinal position can be maintained. It must be remembered that the WTS has never actually "Taught" its two-hope theory - it has dictated it, with no optional grid supplied. The teaching is simply not open to discussion, or debate. Take it or leave it. To paraphrase an aphorism of the 70s, "Authority means never having to say you're sorry"


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