A sensible fix for the Jehovah's Witness "two witness rule" when dealing with child sex abuse

by Watchtower-Free 23 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse

  • Finkelstein
    Finkelstein

    Just for information purposes .......

    Proverbs 25:9
    Parallel Verses
    New International Version
    If you take your neighbor to court, do not betray another's confidence,

    New Living Translation
    When arguing with your neighbor, don't betray another person's secret.

    English Standard Version
    Argue your case with your neighbor himself, and do not reveal another’s secret,

    New American Standard Bible
    Argue your case with your neighbor, And do not reveal the secret of another,

    King James Bible
    Debate thy cause with thy neighbour himself; and discover not a secret to another:

    Young's Literal Translation
    Thy cause plead with thy neighbour, And the secret counsel of another reveal not,
    Parallel Commentaries
    Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary

    25:1-3 God needs not search into any thing; nothing can be hid from him. But it is the honour of rulers to search out matters, to bring to light hidden works of darkness. 4,5. For a prince to suppress vice, and reform his people, is the best way to support his government. 6,7. Religion teaches us humility and self-denial. He who has seen the glory of the Lord in Christ Jesus, will feel his own unworthiness. 8-10. To be hasty in beginning strife, will bring into difficulties. War must at length end, and might better be prevented. It is so in private quarrels; do all thou canst to settle the matter. 11,12. A word of counsel, or reproof, rightly spoken, is especially beautiful, as fine fruit becomes still more beautiful in silver baskets. 13. See what ought to be the aim of him that is trusted with any business; to be faithful. A faithful minister, Christ's messenger, should be thus acceptable to us. 14. He who pretends to have received or given that which he never had, is like the morning cloud, that disappoints those who look for rain. 15. Be patient to bear a present hurt. Be mild to speak without passion; for persuasive language is the most effectual to prevail over the hardened mind. 16. God has given us leave to use grateful things, but we are cautioned against excess.

    Pulpit Commentary

    Verses 9, 10. - A tetrastich without parallelism, connected with the preceding maxim. Verse 9. - Debate thy cause with thy neighbour himself (Matthew 18:15; see on ver. 8). If you have any quarrel with a neighbour, or are drawn into a controversy with him, deal with him privately in a friendly manner. And discover not a secret to another; rather, the secret of another. Do not bring in a third party, or make use of anything entrusted to you by another person, or of which you have become privately informed, in order to support your cause.

    Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

    Debate thy cause with thy neighbour himself,.... Between thee and him alone; lay the matter before him, and hear what he has to say for himself, by which you will better judge of the nature of the cause; try to compromise things, and make up the difference between you, which is much better than to commence a lawsuit; at least such a step should be taken first; see Matthew 5:25;

    and discover not a secret to another; if the thing in controversy is a secret, do not acquaint another person with it; keep it among yourselves, if the affair can be made up without bringing it into a court of judicature; besides, by communicating it to others, you may have bad counsel given, and be led to take indirect methods: or, "the secret of another", or, "another secret do not discover" (b); if you know anything scandalous and reproachful of your neighbour and his family, you are contending with, which does not concern the cause in hand, do not divulge it, as persons from a spirit of revenge are apt to do, when they are quarrelling or litigating a point with each other.

    (b) "secretum alterius", Pagninus, Montanus; "arcanum alterius", Tigurine version, Junius & Tremellius, Piscator, Mercerus, Michaelis, Schultens, so Cocceius, Gejerus; "arcanum aliud", Munster; "alienum", Syriac version.

    Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

    9, 10. (Compare Mt 5:25, Margin).

    secret—that is, of your opponent, for his disadvantage, and so you be disgraced, not having discussed your difficulties with him.

    Proverbs 25:9 Additional Commentaries
    Context
    More Proverbs of Solomon
    8Do not go out hastily to argue your case; Otherwise, what will you do in the end, When your neighbor humiliates you? 9Argue your case with your neighbor, And do not reveal the secret of another, 10Or he who hears it will reproach you, And the evil report about you will not pass away.…
    Cross References
    Matthew 18:15
    "If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over.

    Proverbs 11:13
    A gossip betrays a confidence, but a trustworthy person keeps a secret.

    Proverbs 25:10
    or the one who hears it may shame you and the charge against you will stand.
    Treasury of Scripture

    Debate your cause with your neighbor himself; and discover not a secret to another:

    with

    Matthew 18:5-17 And whoever shall receive one such little child in my name receives me…

    a secret to another

    Proverbs 11:13 A talebearer reveals secrets: but he that is of a faithful spirit …

    Proverbs 20:19 He that goes about as a talebearer reveals secrets: therefore meddle …

  • jamiebowers
    jamiebowers
    @wannabefree: What they do is what the law of the land requires. The lawsuits brought against the Organization are from decades ago for the most part.

    Not so, sir! Please see the thread below. Gilbert Simental confessed to the elders regarding his molestation crimes committed in 2005 and 2006. Police were alerted by one of the victim's teachers at school. And the elders had to be threatened with charges in order for them to testify in 2008.

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/161205/convicted-molester-sentenced-45-years-life-simental-murietta-ca?page=1

  • Mad Sweeney
    Mad Sweeney
    Answer to all those "lets keep secrets" scriptures above:

    1 Peter 2: 13-17:
    13 Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human authority: whether to the emperor, as the supreme authority, 14 or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. 15 For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish people. 16 Live as free people, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as God’s slaves. 17 Show proper respect to everyone, love the family of believers, fear God, honor the emperor.
  • zeb
    zeb
    and the day the powers change the law forcing the reporting of p. then the wts will scream out "New light! new light! aint we bloody wonderful!"
  • Pistoff
    Pistoff

    This is easy; if a victim comes forward, send them to the police IMMEDIATELY.

    No calling WT; no convening a committee.

    This puts the responsibility where it belongs, on the parents to report and the police (trained to do this job) instead of men who likely know the perp and who pass it off to bethel.

    JUST CALL THE COPS.

  • done4good
    done4good

    It will not work. The WT knows this and this is why the Conti case matters so much. They know the outcome will set a legal precedent that will force them to choose their finances over control of the flock. The decision will weaken the judicial process as the WT knows it.

  • Pistoff
    Pistoff

    Why this is an issue STILL speaks volumes to the egos of those who now say they alone are the Faithful and Discreet Slave.

    They were wrong; they made a huge mistake, that mistake cost hundreds, maybe thousands, their innocence and likely their faith, and is now costing them millions, and their reputation.

    They STILL have not learned their lesson; they put their policy right there in the open for elders to see, in the 10/2012 letter to the body of elders.

    1. No brother KNOWN by the congregation to be a child molester can ever be used in a position of responsibility.

    2. Bethel alone decides who is 'known' to be a child molester, NOT the local brothers.

    3. They will not rule out that 'one who has sexually abused a child' be used in a position of responsibility. (paragraph 22)

    Get it? Only one who the society knows was a child molester, but NOT KNOWN to the congregation as a child molester, could be considered. This means they know, but the congregation doesn't!!

    They have NOT CHANGED one bit; they still retain the right to shield the identity of those they KNOW to be child molesters, and they 'can't rule out' that they could be used in a position of responsibility!

    It is beyond belief.

    If you doubt this is true, re-read that BOE letter, it is right there in black and white.

  • Pistoff
    Pistoff

    Telling a victim to call the cops is the only sensible, and moral, thing to do; it lets them completely out of the process.

    They have made this worse in the last 2 years; they have gathered even more legal liability to themselves.

    I never thought anything could take them down, but this might.

    In the Lopez case, they flat out refused to provide documents, and they refused to allow Gerritt Loesch to be deposed!

    They seem to have lost their minds.

  • Finkelstein
    Finkelstein

    The WTS could also institute an arrangement on their own, that states if someone is accused of pedophilia but they do not admit to it, that they are put on temporary DAing until its been investigated by outside authorities and elders should cooperate with that investigation.

    If the accused is proven innocent by judicial law, the person can be reinstated with full privileges. If the person is guilty of the crime it should be announced at the Hall of where they attended as a measure of precaution and notice.

    One thing that puzzles me with the Candace Conti case, was that usually when someone is a charged and penalized with pedophilia and they are released form jail, there's usually a stipulation that they are not to be publicly alone with children. Why didn't Jonathan Kendricks not have that stipulation on his release ???

  • Pistoff
    Pistoff

    Why didn't Jonathan Kendricks not have that stipulation on his release ???

    Why didn't WT do it? Because they have a 2 witness policy.

    Even if a perp is convicted (Paul Berry), the congregation views them as innocent unless there are 2 witnesses to the same event.

    The WT leadership is too arrogant, and let's face it, dunderheaded, to realize they should STOP TALKING about having 2 witnesses to child sexual abuse.

    It is not a reasonable part of the process of finding out if a child was abused, but the WT goes on investigating it as if it were the same as smoking, or adultery.

    And they keep getting clobbered, huh, go figure.

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