Source material: "144,000" and "anointed" in The Watchtower, 2000-2015

by Doug Mason 26 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • suavojr

    Seriously Charlie, you cannot expect that we are going to accept what you say without proof.

  • Doug Mason
    Doug Mason

    Those NT writers (and editors/redactors) thought they were living at the very last of the Last Days, with the imminent divine intervention in prospect - in their own time, during "this generation". An example is at Revelation 22:7, 12, 20: "I am coming soon."

    They were wrong. This idea of an imminent divine intervention has been repeated throughout history, yet people never learn the lesson that history teaches. So we see people today saying the same thing - all with a score of zero.

    You are correct that at 1 Thessalonians, Paul expected the Coming to take place while "we who are still alive". When that failed to eventuate, someone - well after Paul's death - tried to calm down their heightened fervor and wrote 2 Thessalonians.


  • Doug Mason
    Doug Mason


    Do I know you from previous discussion as Lars/Larry/etc.? He told me that he was the Jesus Christ who had returned in 1992 and that he had met the resurrected Daniel.


  • leaving_quietly

    Someone on another thread wondered if CharlieSmith1975 was actually Larsinger58. The writing style seems similar, as does the points made. Lars used to say the same stuff as CharlieSmith1975 is posting. He used to talk about being part of the secret society know as the Knights Templar and believed some would remain alive throughout time.

    In addition, a Google search for "Isa 6:13" and 144,000 brought up several posts on various forums with similar writing styles by users named Anonymous2100, Lars Wilson and Larry Wilson (from what I found with a quickie search). Makes me think whoever made the connection between CharlieSmith1975 and Larsinger58 may be right.

    Charlie, if you are Lars, welcome back. But fess up.

    Edit: Hadn't read to page two of this thread. Even Doug makes this connection. ;)

    " Ground control to Major Lars !"
  • opusdei1972

    I have gone through some steps until arriving in agnosticism. I am surprised by my quick change. Five years ago I still believed that the organization had 80% of Truth. So, I was a stupid WT apologist as a member of a Witness Forum. Then, I noticed that this religion is stupid, evil, and very wrong in many aspects, even in its interpretation of the Bible. However, I still believed in the Bible as the Word of God. Then I entered and was active in a christian forum of ex-witnesses. Then, some of them, believed not in every Bible passage as inspired or historical. For instance, some of them believed not in the virginity of Mary, or in the historicity of the account of Adam and Eve. Firstly I was angry for them, because I believed in the Bible as the Word of God, so I had strong debates in which I defended the necessity of the literalness of some Bible passages because these were quoted as such by Jesus and Paul. But, some day, I started to use my brain without passion, then I noted that the priest Raymond Brown and Bart Ehrman were right about many issues in which they show that many NT passages can't be historical facts. Then I discovered how evil was the OT, so I ended up in agnosticism. Now I am happy to know the truth. The truth is that the Bible contains many falsehoods, and the story of Jesus' resurrection is not reliable through the contradictions of the Gospels. So, we can't know for sure what happens after the death.

    Paul said that he saw a light of the resurrected Jesus, and he also heard his voice, but we are not obligated to believe that, because Jesus did nothing to comunicate truth to his Church. The Fact is that the christian religion was always a mess, and if Jesus resurrected, then he transgressed on account of his omission, because his disciples were, and are guilty of many absurdities and lies in his name. So I doubt that he is the head of any church.

  • Doug Mason
    Doug Mason


    I agree with the path you are walking along. But please remind me where Paul wrote that he saw a light of the resurrected Jesus. Are you thinking of Gal 1:12?

    Have you studied how the Bible came to be assembled? Have you looked at the different lists of books that make up the Bible ? Why is it that Paul's writings and philosophies dominate the NT?

    A lot of what we read in the NT was written decades after the Jesus event, likely none of whom saw or heard him.


  • CharlieSmith1975

    Those NT writers (and editors/redactors) thought they were living at the very last of the Last Days, with the imminent divine intervention in prospect - in their own time, during "this generation". An example is at Revelation 22:7, 12, 20: "I am coming soon."

    Doug, I totally hear you on this and am truly not offering any contradiction to that position. But this is a JW discussion board. JWs are into chronology. They believe that the "7 times" prophecy dates the 2nd coming 2520 years after the fall of Jerusalem in 607 BCE, thus in 1914. If you want to use the 587 BC secular date for the fall of Jerusalem, then you are looking at 1934, which is a date nobody wants to look at.

    Your point being, that there were two groups during this time. One group who were expected to survive and still be alive when Christ came and another group who would die off and need to be resurrected. So it is not that easy to say "this generation" and apply normal lifespans. That is, it was clear many would die and have to be resurrected. What about their generation? Was Christ just talking about the younger ones who would still be alive when he returns? But the fact that many would die and need to be resurrected who lived normal life spans in the 1st century is consistent with Christ coming long after their normal lifespan. Turns out it was over 1900 years later.

    Remember when Jesus told John to take care of Mary? He said to Mary, this is your son, and to John, this is your mother. Mary had other sons. John was Mary's nephew. Do you really know what he was saying? He was saying that Mary would be chosen among those who would never die along with his beloved John. Thus over the centuries, John and Mary would be together and take care of each other. Mary is still alive. I met her at the Kingdom Hall, in fact. So I'm living in a different world than you. I'm in a spiritual world which you cannot understand. Everything I tell you will seem like nonsense.

    Now, whether I'm jerking your chain or delusional or both, one fact remains and it is all I have to offer. Since what I tell you is the truth and real, there is absolutely no way possible for you to disprove it. All you can do is disbelieve and call names and wait for Armageddon.

    Now this is the basic plan. God appears to the elect first and his secret followers. Then later on he appears to the world and they start to believe when the miracles begin, because they can't accept what is prophesied in the Bible. They can't. In fact God says he will make it so unbelievable they won't believe it even if it is explained to them in detail. That's what is going on here.

    For he that has much, more will be given. For he that has nothing, that will be taken away. So for the believers, those with faith to move mountains, we get to see the miracles. We get to meet Mary and John and Paul. We get to understand scripture. For the scorners and outsiders, if they were doubters yesterday, God makes sure he stumbles them into darkness today. If God has led them blind to a high cliff yesterday, the returned Christ comes and pushes them over today. There is no one in the middle now. When the angels of death come, they won't have to hesitate one second because those who are not marked are no longer borderliners.

    But this is all academic. If it turns out that yes, John, Mary, and Paul are indeed still alive, and maintaining some critical ancient texts and artifacts, mind you, then I'll just be vindicated. But I can't possibly expect you to believe a miracle at this point. But the miracles are coming, culminating with Armageddon. That's when I'll be vindicated. In the meantime, you're just reflecting you don't believe the Bible is true and I'm reflecting that I do. God is watching us both.

    BTW, do you believe in God or are you an atheist? Anyway, thanks for your work at exposing JWs. Christ says he who is not against me is for me. So since he also hates the WTS, I guess you and he have something in common. So carry on!

  • CharlieSmith1975


    //Have you studied how the Bible came to be assembled? Have you looked at the different lists of books that make up the Bible ? Why is it that Paul's writings and philosophies dominate the NT?//

    I told you why? John and Paul never died.

    Ever hear of the Templars? They are a real secret society. Real people. Guess what they are looking for? They say the "holy grail" which is linked to the chalice, which is linked to John. Their story for the public is that they are looking for the holy grail, the royal bloodline and all that. But who they are looking for is John! Apparently the Templars discovered that John and a congregation of others along with many records were hiding under the temple. They reported this to the Vatican who then commissioned them to collect John, of course and all those records. Those records were genealogy records of individuals who needed to prove their ancestry back to the original founders of the 10 tribes of Israel. That's because the 144,000 have to be made up of 12,000 from each of the tribes and there is no way to accomplish that unless the 12 tribes of Israel were re--born in modern times. So those with genealogy records in Jesus' day, individuals, were chosen never to die so that they could marry into indigenous populations in modern times and reconstruct the 12 tribes of Israel, out of which 12K each would be chosen to be part of the anointed. The 144,000 represent these chosen ones from the descendants of Christians from Jesus' day who had their lineage papers. But the 144,000 just make up the "root" of the entire tree, 1/10th (Isa. 6:13), so the rest of the tree is made up of gentiles, so that the total number of the elect is 1,440,000.

    At any rate, John and this congregation and all those records have been on the run ever since then. So it is ironic that the average person might not believe that John is still alive and Paul is still alive, but the existence of the Templars tends to suggest that they found John at some point and their quest to find him, their quest to find the "holy grail" is really about finding him and those genealogy records. So the main reason for having some from Jesus day live down to our time is so that the 12 tribes of Israel could be reborn again in modern times, which it has been. In that way, 12K from each tribe can be sealed into the kingdom to fulfill prophecy. But I suppose Jesus chose John and Mary never to die as well. What a story they all have to tell living down through time. Always having to move. Always being secretive, especially with the Templars on their tails. Plus having to find somewhere to store all those records. At last report, those records were said to fill up several wagons. Now that is what is really going on in the secret world.

    So it doesn't leave me much room when you start talking about texts and revisions and the canon, because I know John and Paul would have made sure to protect the canon and the Scriptures. They did. The bible we have does what it is supposed to do. The claim is that it has been revised extensively but there is no evidence of that. What few clear indications of that tolerated or ignored but it doesn't change the fundamental teachings of scripture. The Bible is amazing and wonderful. Some look to the Bible for its light and others are searching for all the darkness they can find, and God grants them that. That's another issue here. Those seeking and loving darkness are granted that darkness. Those in the light can't be tolerated by those of the darkness.

    My official position is. By no means believe a word I say. That won't cost you. But if you doubt the Bible, you think the Bible is not a book of truth, then that will cost you. The Bible says John, Mary and Paul would never die. If you don't believe that miracle. Fine. So I'm just mocking you when I tell you I've seen them. Because I know it's too hard to believe, even though it is true. It is actually true!

    But then there is the ultimate fact we have to face. That is, that apparently God isn't that concerned about everybody knowing everything. He shares his secrets with his select ones and leaves the majority of people in the dark until his own time. That's his way. That's the way of Christ. To speak in parables that had a special meaning for his followers but meant nothing to outsiders.

    That's what is going on now. People think the bible is not true, there is no God and nothing is being fulfilled. But in fact, EVERYTHING is being fulfilled. And that includes the fact that some during Jesus' day would not die until he returns and per Bible chronology he doesn't return until 2520 years after the fall of Jerusalem, whether you date that to 529 BC, 587 BC or 607 BC, that's still 2520 years away from dates in the 6th Century BC!

    I'm a bright light in a dark world a world of people who run from me because they hate the light and love darkness. I'm talking now. Wait until the "magic" starts, right? This is the end of the world time. Time for God to rock-n-roll again like he did in Noah's day!

    (oh, excuse me, time for my medication. Gotta run!)

  • CharlieSmith1975
    leaving_quietly4 hours ago

    Someone on another thread wondered if CharlieSmith1975 was actually Larsinger58. The writing style seems similar, as does the points made. Lars used to say the same stuff as CharlieSmith1975 is posting. He used to talk about being part of the secret society know as the Knights Templar and believed some would remain alive throughout time.//

    Oh, I see what you're saying. You're saying Larsguy/Larry, etc paid Charlie to post his propaganda. Hmm, wish I'd thought of that!

    You know, you can get practically anybody to set up an email address and an account and get them to post your information for them. That person can be a real person and just not care if you use their identity or if you post under their name.

    But what does it matter? How many fake IDs does the FBI use to pretend to be real people while watching these discussion boards? How many other fake identities are on this board? Plus the board supports anonymity. Lots of witnesses might get in trouble if their congregations knew what they were up to on this board, looking for truth, asking questions... being apostate.

    I used to put a lot of letters in a big envelope and mail them to the Postmaster in another city far away and have the postmaster mail out the letters from another part of the country so the postmark wouldn't give the WTS a clue where the information originated from.

    You know, crack addicts always need another $10! Most of them have established e-mails and web addresses, etc. So I have been known to pay them to post information for me. Then when they check that person they find out he's some rapper with no connection to the witnesses at all, but their name is on lots of my propaganda.

    But you know, JESUS used to do that all the time himself. He'd keep disguising himself to fool his disciples until some of the clever ones would guess, by something he did that it was him. He had a unique style or a special message they recognized. So ultimately, while it was a lot of fun, the disguises only worked for a short while.

    Doesn't seem much has changed in all that time, does it?

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