by silentWatcher 30 Replies latest watchtower bible
I am now realizing how much blood giult I would have being elder. that is why I will not accept eldership.
I encourage all here to step down of being elder, unless they are staying there to help bring down the WT!!
Hope some CO's and DO's are helping us too!!!
I disagree. I think it is a consequence of their own stand.
Perhaps, but I'm thinking that many future lawsuits will be the result of non-jw relatives, (husbands, wives, fathers, mothers) of injured or dead witnesses who will sue. They will successfully prove that the society, and the elder body, knew that the scriptural basis for the doctrine was shaky at best, and that the secular facts were purposly misconstrued to the average jw. In short, that their injured or lied to jw relative was lied to purposly.
maybe they refuse because they truly believe it is God's will. Either way, their compliance is on their own head, imho.
Not necessarily. I believe that the law will eventually recognize cult members as people incapable of making certain decisions and will move to protect them just as they now override the jw parent to protect a child in a life or death situation. It will take time, but it will happen.
My point is that the enemy is not the well-intentioned elder.
No, but they are the soft spot. Without them, the org would have a difficult time running things. They cannot afford to pay people to handle duties, and certainly not set up 'legal teams' to handle judicial matters.
Take out the elder body, and the beast would be mortally wounded.
I don't think the individual elder is any more culpable than any other brainwashed member of the JWs, however.
Here is where I really disagree. With position comes authority. With authority comes responsibility.
It is inevitable that the elder body will be the fall guy for the org. They will be sacrificed by the thousands. To any practicing 'elder' or 'ms' I say, get out now while your freedom and limited finances still exist.
Eventually, speaking for an organization you know to be corrupt will get you into the same position as the Enron management team... Facing jail time and dramatic financial reversal.
Jean
They will successfully prove that the society, and the elder body, knew that the scriptural basis for the doctrine was shaky at best, and that the secular facts were purposly misconstrued to the average jw. In short, that their injured or lied to jw relative was lied to purposly.
How do the elders know any more than the R&F that the scriptural basis for the blood doctorine is shaky at best? I'm no dummy, and I am coincidently interested in medicine, and 4 years ago my son nearly died and the blood issue came up. And yet still, it took me years after that, reading this board and similar ones before I truly stopped believing the blood doctorine as described by the WTS. My husband still believes it, heart and soul.
I believe that the law will eventually recognize cult members as people incapable of making certain decisions
Elders and Ministerial Servants are cult members, too. I'd say the majority are just as brainwashed as the rest of us were.
With position comes authority. With authority comes responsibility
Seriously, though, what authority do elders have? In reality, they have not one shred of authority that isn't specifically handed them by Brooklyn. They are told what letters to read to the congregation, when to read them, what letters to keep secret, what to say in their public talks, what to say at assemblies, how to do shepherding calls and what to say on them, what to wear on stage, how long their hair can be, etc, etc, etc. That is not my definition of authority.
speaking for an organization you know to be corrupt will get you into the same position as the Enron management team
I agree that it should. But I disagree that all elders see the WTS as corrupt. Even after I left because of doctorinal issues, I didn't believe it was. Again, reading boards like this one are what brought it to my attention at all. Faithful, obedient JW elders would never be on a board like this. They are members of a controlling cult, just like the rest of us were.
GGG
Suing is necessary. GGG's point is valid about elders being sincere, but somewhere along the line an example has to be made to stop this sort of behaviour. If the WTS is truly a loving org I am sure some brothers will help the elder out financially.
I dont know too much about the legal side, but suing on religious grounds rarely works. It would have to be on some normal illegal action of the elder. If an elder illegally enters a persons house, threatens a brother, steals a child from a hospital etc there would be grounds to sue. However the guidelines that Bethel gives to the HLC and in the elders manual have been carefully put together by the Bethel Legal Department. If an elder follows the guidelines it will be very hard to sue them.
It is the arrogant elders that go past WTS rules that need to be targetted.
Seriously, though, what authority do elders have?
I want to address this point in specific, as I believe that this will be part of the test in the courts against elders.
You ask what authority they have? Do you really believe that they do not have authority over peoples lives? Let me tell you something...
For 15 years a drunken ‘brother in good standing’ abused me. I wanted to leave and was advised by the elders not to. They threatened my standing in the congregation, my ties to family, and my relationship with my God if I left. I believed that they knew what they were talking about because of their positions. When I woke up in the hospital the last time, and my doctor told me that I was going to have to pick another doctor because I just would not extricate myself from the position I was in, that is when I left.
The authority may be a sham to most thinking people, but not to a fully indoctrinated witness like I was. Would you like to see the scars??
Believe me, whether or not you wish to believe that they have 'authority', they do. It was not the society telling me to stay with my ex, it was their representative, the elders. They are who the r&f deal with on a daily basis. They are the 'axe men' for society policy. And for their part, they are responsible for their actions, advice, and selective honesty.
Please don't try to tell me that the elders are forthcoming with their own personal beliefs and information either. I was an elders daughter and remember 'listening' in on my fathers telephone conversations with other elders and the CO's as to what was really going on in Brooklyn and in the CO meetings. This used to confuse me greatly when he would sit silently as the visiting CO would stand up at the service meeting and give a talk that was completely the opposite of what I had heard him talking about. I know for a fact that he would not tell my mother any of this and had he known I was 'listening' I'd have gotten it at the buckle end of his belt. (prolly would have deserved it too... sneaky little dickens)
Look, this is not about your husband or any other elder who had the good conscience to steer clear of situations that would make them responsible for harming someone. But for those who have acted on judicial committees which have stripped people of their families, harmed them psychologically, resulted in forcing them to choose between their safety and their ties to the congregation, or even resulted in the death of someone due to the blood doctrine...
Sorry, buddy but your ass is grass. You may be 'a true believer' but you still should pay for what you have done.
A criminal does not get out of paying for his crime by 'finding Jesus', 'repenting', or 'acting according to faith'. He still does his time.
I can't say it enough: if you give advice in an acknowledged position of authority, you are responsible for the consequences. Religious bodies have been shielded from this consequence for far too long, at a tremendous human cost. It is time that the religious legal loophole is closed for good.
Jean
I presume you are talking about sueing for money.
Depends on if the elder "intentionally" played a part in the deception. For example, did the elder know the Priestley quote was wrong, but continued to use it? Did the elder refrained from even mentioning hemoglobin, when he knew it was a possibility.
It also depends on whether a court would find the elder had a "duty" to his followers. I think the largest duty is from the Society to the average JW. But, in other situations, such as known child abuse, I (if I were judge) would say the elder does owe a duty to the harmed child to help that child get help...and this is especially so where there is a law that requires clergy to report to the authorities. In others, such as the blood policy, the average elder (except for the hospital liasion) does nothing but follow orders.
But, these are my off-the-cuff, answers.
Skeeter1
Jean,
I'm so very sorry for what you went through. You wrote:
Believe me, whether or not you wish to believe that they have 'authority', they do. It was not the society telling me to stay with my ex, it was their representative, the elders.
You stayed in a horribly abusive relationship because the elders told you to, and because of your indoctorination you truly believed that the elders had authority over you. But my point is this: What if those same elders, because of their indoctrination, did what they did because they truly believed that the WTS had authority over them? They aren't flying solo here, they are only window washers and ditch diggers in real life. They do what ''God's Spirit Directed Organization'' tells them, just like the rest of us did.
I can't say it enough: if you give advice in an acknowledged position of authority, you are responsible for the consequences. Religious bodies have been shielded from this consequence for far too long, at a tremendous human cost. It is time that the religious legal loophole is closed for good.
I respectfully disagree. I don't trivialize what you went through as a result of uneducated elders giving you terrible advice, and what it must have cost you physically and emotionally. But I do believe that very many elders are just as completely blinded and indoctrinated as the rest of us were. Suing sincere elders is just punishing a different victim, then. That being said, I do think that those who sit at the head of the religious table in Brooklyn should absolutely answer for their sins. And I mean 'sins' in the truest sense of the word.
GGG
My point is that the enemy is not the well-intentioned elder. The individual elder is more tangible than a multi-million dollar corporation, though, and can easily end up as the fall guy.-----------------------------------------
The elder is not the enemy? How so? I get real tired of hearing about 'intentions' or 'motives' from my jw I could spit nails. The guy who gets in his car drunk and kills a family didn't have bad intentions or bad motives either. Probably just wanted to get home to bed. Should we let him off the hook? Or should he bear some kind of responsibility? It was his choice with no bad intentions. He didn't set out to kill a family.
Personally I hope people do go after elders, MS, whoever! You can take this mind control to a point. Then sheer laziness comes into play. The jw who has info at hand but refuses to look can blame no one but themself. If you allow men in Brooklyn to micro manage your life and thoughts then you must bear the responsibility. Harsh? maybe. We still go after SS guards don't we? They were just following orders too. Some of the SS guards did not have a choice, do the duty or be shot in the head.They chose to save thier own skin, just like the elders. The elders have a choice. They choose to destroy families and kill people with thier blood policy. It doesn't matter if they think they are doing the right thing or not. As for the usual jw line of 'motives', when did God ever tell a false prophet that, 'hey, it's ok you spread false things about Me, your heart was in the right place'.? And an elder feeling bad later? that's so heartwarming. After destroying complete families that will affect generations and killing people, yeah, I guess they should feel bad. What are they doing to rectify the situation? How can they pay back what they stole? I don't see a whole hell of alot of ex elders writing books, going on talk shows or otherwise trying to make amends and letting the public know about this destructive cult. That would at least be something.
If I had the money I would personally help as many exjw go after as many elders as I could. Pretty soon you would run out of guys wanting to micromanage other peoples lives and maybe, just maybe the wt would finally fall.
Liability comes with any position of authority. GoingGoingGone, I hear what you are saying. I don't think all elders should be sued carte-blanche, but if a specific elder gave bad advice, they should be held as accountable as the organization that created them.
Doctors and most of the other helping professions carry liability insurance to cover this kind of consequence.
I think it's high time that elder-recruits consider the full cost of their commitment. The organization certainly does not provide any sort of coverage, and I haven't heard of Jehovah breaking any elders out of jail, lately.
Now, has the society been sued successfully? I notice that any judgements that may come down badly on the side of the society tend to be settled out of court, with a rather extensive gag order attached. They blink on the web for a few weeks or months, then mysteriously disappear.
Going.....
It might not be fair but maybe Elders should be regarded as "collateral damage" in bringing down the Org.
Wombat
