Aprocrypha and JWs

by Lilycurly 11 Replies latest jw experiences

  • Lilycurly
    Lilycurly

    I made a search but didn't come up with anything specific about what are the views of JWs concerning the apocryphal Bible books.

    From what I know, some man a long time ago (Catholic or Pagan, but certainly not a Jehovah's Witness) decided wich books were inspired and wich to dump, and then proceeded to assemble the Bible as we know it today.

    Now I don't want to start a fight about wether or not they would be inspired....but how do the JWs explain that they accept this choice made by this particular man (or group??) Do they admit tha the man was inspired? If they do, then they'd have to admit that god gives his blessing to other religions, and if not, they are missing some books and serious information....

    What would my father tell me, if I asked him? Do they have an easy answer?

  • sir82
    sir82

    They will likely point you to the "All Scriptures Inspired" book. It has one chapter for each of the 66 books included in the Bible. Each chapter has 1 paragraph about why the book that chapter considers in canonical. As I recall, in most cases, the reasons given are "traditionally accepted as part of the canon" and "is in complete harmony with the rest of the bible".

    Ergo, any book not part of the canon (the apocrypha) either "was not traditionally part of the canon", or "is not in harmony with the rest of the Bible".

  • Dune
    Dune

    Last year, I had a Proffessor that believed in some of the apocryphal books. We had an argument/debate after a class one day and she tended to stick to the emotional side in keeping the apocryphal books. (The hardwork of the writers, they basically promote unity and basic beliefs).

    The only resource i had was something i found in the watchtower library. I just related that the reason they arent included are because the books are full of inconsistencies with the other books of the bible. Also, none of the apocryphal books are quoted in the more or less "acceptable" books of the bible. I also argued that some of the books painted a picture of an effiminate god and a Jesus that wasnt consistent with other bible books (love affair with mary).

    Anyway, before anyone tries to attack this, keep in mind that this was a debate that I had almost year ago, if the same thing happened today, i would really care less.

  • Inquisitor
    Inquisitor
    Do they admit tha the man was inspired? - Lilycurly

    I don't think it is common practice anymore for JWs to determine who (other than the accepted list of Bible writers) is inspired of God. Not these days anyway. Heck, they're even hesitate to say out loud that the writers at Bethel HQ are inspired (though treating them with any less respect would get you into trouble).

    So no, they wouldn't say he was inspired. But they MIGHT say he was guided by God or that his actions were part of Jehovah's marvelous design. That's what I think.

    how do the JWs explain that they accept this choice made by this particular man (or group??) - Lilycurly

    Who said anything about ACCEPTING the work of others??

    The WTS had once made the point that it is possible to determine bible canonicity WITHOUT referring to who said what, when or why. Here's how it's done:

    "Determining

    Canonicity. What are some of the divine indications that have determined the canonicity of the 66 books of the Bible? First of all, the documents must deal with Jehovah’s affairs in the earth, turning men to his worship and stimulating deep respect for his name and for his work and purposes in the earth. They must give evidence of inspiration, that is, that they are products of holy spirit. (2 Pet. 1:21) There must be no appeal to superstition or creature worship but, rather, an appeal to love and service of God. There would have to be nothing in any of the individual writings that would conflict with the internal harmony of the whole, but, rather, each book must, by its unity with the others, support the one authorship, that of Jehovah God. We would also expect the writings to give evidence of accuracy down to the smallest details." - si 299-300

    Meaning? "We can determine the Bible canon for OURSELVES thank you very much. It's by pure COINCIDENCE that our canon matches Christendom's. So we needn't acknowledge the efforts of any ancient smarty-pants or Babylon the Great. We're doing fine."

    Hope this helps.

    INQ

  • Lilycurly
    Lilycurly

    Yeah, but the problem is...not *all* of the bible is in harmony, try as they might, they could never convince me of it. Maybe the Bible itself is the one being in contradiction with the apocrypha....I'll need to make more research about this...I'm just all worked up because I'm in the middle of reading the Da Vinci Code...

  • sinis
    sinis

    JEREMIAH 8:8
    "How can you say,We are wise, and the Law of the Lord is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie,"
    Note: ( Whenever you see that term 'law of the Lord' the Hebrew word is Torah.)

    2 KINGS 22:8"And Hiil-kiah, the high priest,said unto Shaphan, the scribe, I have found the book of the law in the house of the Lord. And Hil-kiah gave the book to Sha phan, and he read it."

    NUMBERS 21:14"Wherefore it is said in the BOOK OF THE WARS OF THE LORD, What He did in the Red Sea, and in the brooks of Arnon..."

    JOSHUA10:13"...Is this not written in the BOOK OF JASHER?"

    I KINGS 11:41"And the rest of the acts of Solomon, and all that he did, and his wisdom, are not written in the BOOK OF THE ACTS OF SOLOMON?"

    1 CHRONICLES 29:29"Now the acts of David the king, first and last, behold, they are written a BOOK OF SAMUEL THE SEER, and in the BOOK OF NATHAN THE PROPHET, and in the BOOK OF GAD THE SEER,.."

    1. The Book of Wars of the Lord: "Therefore it is said in the Book of the Wars of the Lord," Num. 21:14
    2. The Book of Jasher
    : "So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, Until the nation avenged themselves of their enemies. Is it not written in the book of Jashar? And the sun stopped in the middle of the sky and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day." Joshua 10:13
  • The annals of Jehu
    • : "Now the rest of the acts of Jehoshaphat, first to last, behold, they are written in the annals of Jehu the son of Hanani, which is recorded in the Book of the Kings of Israel." 2 Chronicles 20:34
  • The
    • treatise of the book of the Kings: "As to his sons and the many oracles against him and the rebuilding of the house of God, behold, they are written in the treatise of the Book of the Kings. Then Amaziah his son became king in his place." 2 Chronicles 24:27
  • The record book of records, Book of the Chronicles of Ahasuerus
    • : "Now when the plot was investigated and found to be so, they were both hanged on a gallows; and it was written in the Book of the Chronicles in the king’s presence." ... "During that night the king could not sleep so he gave an order to bring the book of records, the chronicles, and they were read before the king." Esther 2:23; 6:1
  • The Acts of Solomon:
    •  "Now the rest of the acts of Solomon and whatever he did, and his wisdom, are they not written in the book of the acts of Solomon?" 1 Kings 11:41
  • The Sayings of Hozai
    • : "His prayer also and how God was entreated by him, and all his sin, his unfaithfulness, and the sites on which he built high places and erected the Asherim and the carved images, before he humbled himself, behold, they are written in the records of the Hozai." 2 Chronicles 33:19
  • The Chronicles of David
    • : "Joab the son of Zeruiah had begun to count them, but did not finish; and because of this, wrath came upon Israel, and the number was not included in the account of the chronicles of King David." 1 Chronicles 27:24
    1. The Chronicles of Samuel, Nathan, Gad: "Now the acts of King David, from first to last, are written in the chronicles of Samuel the seer, in the chronicles of Nathan the prophet and in the chronicles of Gad the seer" 1 Chronicles 29:29
    2. Samuels book
    : "Then Samuel told the people the ordinances of the kingdom, and wrote them in the book and placed it before the Lord." 1 Samuel 10:25
  • The records of Nathan the prophet
    • : "Now the rest of the acts of Solomon, from first to last, are they not written in the records of Nathan the prophet, and in the prophecy of Ahijah the Shilonite, and in the visions of Iddo the seer concerning Jeroboam the son of Nebat?" 2 Chronicles 9:29
  • The Prophecy of Ahijah the Shilonite
    • : "Now the rest of the acts of Solomon, from first to last, are they not written in the records of Nathan the prophet, and in the prophecy of Ahijah the Shilonite, and in the visions of Iddo the seer concerning Jeroboam the son of Nebat?" 2 Chronicles 9:29
  • The Treatise of the Prophet Iddo
    • : "Now the rest of the acts of Abijah, and his ways and his words are written in the treatise of the prophet Iddo." 2 Chronicles 13:22
  • Paul’s inspired letter to the church at Laodicea
    • : "When this letter is read among you, have it also read in the church of the Laodiceans; and you, for your part read my letter that is coming from Laodicea." Colossians 4:16 (Since three early manuscripts do not contain the words "at Ephesus" in Eph 1:1, some have speculated that the letter coming from Laodicea was in fact the letter of Ephesians. Apostolic Fathers also debated this possibility.)
  • Paul’s first letter to Corinth
    • , that predated the present "1 Corinthians"? "I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people" (1 Corinthians 5:9) (This could merely be a reference to the present letter of 1 Corinthians.)
    1. The Book of Remembrance: "Then those who feared the Lord spoke to one another, and the Lord gave attention and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before Him for those who fear the Lord and who esteem His name." Malachi 3:16
    2. The Book of Life
    : Dan. 12:1; Phil. 4:3; Rev. 20:12; 22:19
  • The Book of Judgment
    • : Dan. 7:10; Rev. 20:12
  • The book with seven seals
    • : "I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a book written inside and on the back, sealed up with seven seals." Revelation 5:1
  • Book in angel’s hand
    • : Then the voice which I heard from heaven, I heard again speaking with me, and saying, "Go, take the book which is open in the hand of the angel who stands on the sea and on the land." Revelation 10:8

    The prophet Enoch, likely quoting a verbal prophecy rather than a book: "It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, "Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones"" Jude 14, see also Gen 5:18, 21ff

    1. Uninspired Athenian poet: "for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’" Acts 17:28
  • Lilycurly
    Lilycurly

    Oooh, nice find, thanks!!

  • Robert_V_Frazier
    Robert_V_Frazier

    Probably the best book on this whole subject, and more, is A General Introduction to the Bible by Norman L. Geisler, William E. Nix.

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0802429165/sr=1-2/qid=1137781252/ref=sr_1_2/002-7056581-8349644?%5Fencoding=UTF8

    Robert V Frazier

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    The Society's criteria are a farce because they are never really put in practice. It has inherited like the rest of Protestantism the canon of Jerome from their Catholic forbearers, and to this a priori determination they apply their criteria in an arbitrary and subjective way. The All Scripture is Inspired book proceeds in this fashion, minimizing disagreements between books, problems with integrity, legendary aspects to the books, etc. (and in some cases the omissions are striking), and the Society's discussions of the apocrypha similarly fail to mention their merits and treat them on the same level as the canonical works. Tobit or Judith is unhistorical, but Esther or Daniel is not? How do the Prayer of Manasseh or Psalm 151, which are short sublime expressions of faith and glorify God, supposedly "fail the test" of inspiration? And why is a work like 1 Enoch, which the Society derides as an uninspired work, quoted verbatim in the Bible and described as inspired prophecy? The question of canonicity is a messy one. In fact, there are many different canons in Christianity. Here is a helpful chart comparing the Catholic canon with the Armenian, Slavonic, Ethiopic, Coptic, Syrian, and other canons:

    http://www.bombaxo.com/canonchart.html

    Note that the original King James included the apocrypha, including 4 Ezra. Today, especially in Protestantism, there is a conflation of the distinctions: inspired = scripture = canonical = authoritative. But throughout Christianity, among many of the church fathers who played a key role in the development of the Catholic canon, there were scriptures that were not canonical, or they accepted scriptures as "inspired" tho not authoritative. In reality, the Bible is a selective anthology of early Jewish and Christian literary works, a selection made by men at a date after the works themselves were written, and if one wants to understand scripture in its context, one must look at other kindred books that were an influence on Bible writers and anticipate many NT ideas, and which were also regarded as scripture by early fathers (note that 1 Enoch was defended as scripture by Tertullian and he even quoted 2 Timothy 3:16 in support of it). Many notions in the NT did not pop out of nowhere but developed earlier ideas found in extracanonical works. If one wants to understand what was in the head of early Christians, one cannot afford to neglect the apostolic fathers, the apocrypha, the pseudepigrapha, the Qumran sectarian literature, and many other works that shed light on the conceptual background of Christianity.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    BTW, the Society has had an overall positive assessment of 1 Maccabees:

    "In bridging this period one of the apocryphal works is of particular value, namely, First Maccabees. It is historical, does not delve into doctrine, and though containing minor inaccuracies its general accuracy is established. It is the one exception to the shortcomings typical of the Apocrypha."

    -- Equipped For Every Good Work, 1946, p. 86

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