I Still Don't Get It

by TMS 13 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  TMS

  Posters on several recent threads have waxed eloquent about reforming, reorganizing, reinventing, mainstreaming Jehovah's Witnesses.

  The comparative efficacy of internal or external pressure has been one of the subthemes.

  As a former 50 year "true believer", this seems like such an exercize in futility. If this is really an organization sponsored by the God of the universe, why dare steady the ark. If not, why bother?

  Are you potential reformers simply trying to prevent further victimization in yet another man-made form of tyranny? Or do you actually believe that this is/was/could be a form of worship from God?

  TMS
• 

  SixofNine

  I don't get it either. My best guess is that it is just very, very difficult, especially more so for some than for others, to toss out everything you felt your life was built on.

  But I also feel very strongly that it is the most painless, most sensible course. The feeling of having let go the ties to tired dogma, is akin to soaring. With an ever present parachute of common sense.

  But I also see many here who only want reform for the immediate benefits it will bring to people still in. In some cases life saving benefits. A noble goal that, I think.
• 

  Maximus

  I'm not a reformer but I will speak for myself.

  : Are you potential reformers simply trying to prevent further victimization in yet another man-made form of tyranny?

  I share your decades of service, and more; I'm not a babe. I have had certain opportunities presented to me that I could not ignore. Do you remember in the '70s the gap between the policy change on Factor VIII and the trickle-down announcement? I knew of the policy change, had been involved, urged locals to contact the Society in a situation involving the imminent death of a hemophiliac. The man on the desk weaseled, although he knew policy had changed. The man died, leaving a grieving wife and small children. Does that give "victimization" a face? I'm troubled decades later.

  I read almost lofty academic discussion here on this board. Comparative efficacy subthemes? You should read my e-mail from lurkers.

  I believe my nearly 700 posts speak for themselves.

  Kids are dying because of the insane blood policy. I'm acquainted with far too many suicides. Have you talked to some of the grown abused children whose lives were ruined? I have.

  Too dramatic? Waxing eloquent in my posts?

  Why bother? Think whatever you want.

  EDIT PS: I guarantee you that Society policy regarding child abuse is changing only because of PRESSURE to their wallet, and EXPOSURE potentially to a huge market they cannot afford to lose. I submit that is not steadying an ark.

  Maximus
  Out of here soon class
• 

  hillary_step

  TMS,

  Now, let us get this issue of ‘reform’ straight once for all. Does the WTS seek to ‘reform’ its more anti-social behavior? Certainly not by choice, but it is forced to reform by pressure. Pressures are bought to bear on the WTS in a number of ways. Discontent within is the least powerful but does yield results eventually. Outside pressure by legal action is the most powerful and successful means of change. Owing to legal pressure aimed upon the WTS over numerous issues, a ‘reform’ of sorts takes place and adjusts its modus operandi, always to the benefit of its adherents.

  To illustrate - As a long time ex JW you well remember the changes made over the decades in the public announcement for the disfellowshipping procedure. The simple statement that occurs today; ‘TMS has been disfellowshipped’ is very different from the announcement 20 years ago ‘TMS has been disfellowshipped for conduct unbecoming a Christian’ and very different from the statement in the years before that, ‘TMS has been disfellowshiped for adultery’. Why the difference? Because the WTS were sued by disgruntled EX JW’s for slander, mental cruelty etc. over the original statements and then moved to find statements which protected themselves legally. Had they not been pressured by external forces, the original statement that publicly humiliated people would still be in force.

  These were NOT ‘flashes of light’ from above that wrought this change, though it may have been presented this way to the congregations, but change was forced on the WTS by outside pressure. It changed the way the Organization operates and subsequently led to a ‘reform’ in the way things were done, to the advantage of its adherents.

  Why bother? Because peoples lives are involved. If you had helped to fish a body out of a river as I have, of a person who had killed himself on the announcement of his DF, you would understand why some struggle to force a ‘reform’. The WTS will by theological evolution be forced to mainstream eventually. It has no choice over this. Twenty five years from now it will probably sit cozily next the Seventh Day Adventists etc. as an eccentric but benign belief but until then people are being hurt unnecessarily.

  HS
• 

  Black Man

  To Maximus & Hillary-Step,
  Peace & Amen to you and your statements....Amen!
• 

  MDS

  Hi TMS:

  Are you potential reformers simply trying to prevent further victimization in yet another man-made form of tyranny? Or do you actually believe that this is/was/could be a form of worship from God?

  The "reformer" is a humanitarian. "Victimization" must go. "Tyranny" must go. However, I think the real, hidden "truth" to the issues surrounding "reform" among JWs is that Jehovah God as a "person" has been and will continue to be, undeniably "missing" in any real, concrete sense. Even though the "reformer" may use the word "God", in his efforts for change. It can be an effective "tool" that he can use to sway "converts" to his "cause."

  If the "reformer" mentions God by Name, its just a formality. The truly informed "reformer" realizes that Jehovah God never was in the picture in the first place. Or, at least he feels this way, inside. (These are NOT my personal views on the subject, but only my viewpoint on how the "reformer" really thinks and feels about his "situation" and how he must carry out his clandestine activity.)

  The "reformer" has come to know that the very design of this religion is NOT "christian" to start with. For example, probably right now, less than 1 percent of JWs can tell you the true meaning of the "Good Samaritan" and what effect the Bible account should have upon all professed "christians" today. Our organization today, is exactly, Anti-Good Samaritan, completely. And no one seems to notice it...rank and file I'm speaking of. But the "reformer" knows this.

  The truly informed "reformer" knows that the Governing Body IS NOT directed by God's spirit, no more than the Pope is directed by God's Spirit. He may not come out and admit it openly, but he knows this.
  He's no fool. The facts speak for themselves.

  The informed "reformer" feels..."if God were involved, I wouldn't have to..." And that makes sense too.

  The informed "reformer" has had to come to a serious fork in the road...to recognize that our bywords, expressions such as "Jehovah", the "Faithful Slave", "spirit-directed organization," "anointed footstep followers," "babylon the great," the "Great Crowd", "Other Sheep," "anointed remnant," "we-are-better-than-all-other-religions" attitudes and other like "theocratic lingo" will all, one day, simply have to become mere cliches, token "expressions" to pacify the "beast," the uninformed "masses" of JWs that carry the burden of the work and finances of the "ministry." If "change" is successful, the "reformer" is still forced to keep up the PRETENSE of the "we're-the-true religion" concept, which supposedly mimics the first century congregation, and thus has God's special favor. He still has to say such.

  Afterall, every religion says its the "true religion," isn't that so?

  That's why Hilary-step said,

  ...The WTS will by theological evolution be forced to mainstream eventually. It has no choice over this. Twenty five years from now it will probably sit cozily next the Seventh Day Adventists etc. as an eccentric but benign belief but until then people are being hurt unnecessarily.

  So the "reform movement" among JWs really has nothing to do with God and real "worship" associated with "spirit & truth", since that notion has been totally destroyed, shattered by the horrendous practice of sin perpetrated by the Governing Body & associates of the WTS over many, many years, removing all doubt that we ever "worshiped God" in real "spirit and truth." No, but that notion is all but gone. That part of him "died" when he learned the real "truth" of the Governing Body and their "lawlessness." -- John 4:23, 24

  The informed "reformer" knows, realizes that Jehovah, Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit was never in the picture, really, else all of these terrible things would not have happened to begin with. But the "reformer" may not come out and say such. But your insightful comments above inadvertently show in actuality, that his efforts and motives are more "humanitarian," than spiritual.

  The informed "Reformer" at least, SUBCONSCIOUSLY, if not consciously, has come to the realization that real "spirituality" as defined in the Bible, is long gone from the earthly scene. He has said to himself..."nobody on earth, really, really has it...we're no worse than anyone else...after reformation, we're just as good a religion as anyone one else...maybe a little bit better" and so on. Afterall, if JWs are not right, then who really has true worship ... who has it, he says to himself? ... Yes, he has said this to himself.

  So then, he makes a inner, personal decision...to save the organization...even with all of its flaws and shortcomings...all of its "unchristianness." He works in clandestine fashion, behind the scenes, to "save" the organization. No, its not for God. No, not at all. No, but its for the people. To help people. Also, its really about survival, longevity and preservation of status for the "organization" itself. He wishes to see the "organization", change. Yes, change, but also, to continue. He wants the "organization" to continue to exist too. This "continuance" of the organization, then, is equally important to the "reformer."

  Therefore, in actuality, though its vocally unspoken, still, the "reform" movement among JWs really has nothing to do with God, Jesus Christ, spirituality or true worship at all, when you get right down to it. No, but to the truly informed "reformer," real, pure worship of God, as such is not even possible anymore, or at least he imagines this is so -- given the real & ugly circumstances he has inherited from the Governing Body of JWs.

  But whether he will "admit it," to you, to others or even to HIMSELF, is of course, another story.

  MDS
• 

  MrMoe

  I said it before and I will say it again: They can change thier colors but they cannot change who they are.

  The WTS is bloodguilty. Fact
  The WTS has harmed peoples lives and emotional state. Fact
  The WTS has ruined marriages. Fact
  The WTS has divided homes and families. Fact
  The WTS is guilty of false prophecy. Fact

  Now, if they are a false prophet, they are a false prophet. No false prophet can reformed (such as the Catholic church and thier dibble dabble with Hitler.)

  A whole LOT would have to change for them to even come close to what is accurate in the bible. Take into consideration as well that perception of what is in the bible will, plain and simply, differ from one person to another. No two people will percieve the same thing. So who would run the WTS? I am 100% sure that the body of men or women, whomever it may be, will disagree on what is to be taught and what is right and wrong.

  The two greatest sommandments are these:

  Love your God Jehovah your God and Love your fellow man as you love yourself. If you follow thiese things, everything else will be added to you. I love my God, I need to work on love for my brother at times. :)
• 

  hillary_step

  MrMoe,

  The desire to see change within the WTS has little to do with theology for most of us but more to do with the effect that this theology has on peoples lives. Whether they are false or true prophets, accurate interpreters or inaccurate is respectfully, not really the issue.

  Let me explain. The WTS is perfectly entitled to interpret scripture in whatever way it sees fit, however eccentric or demented these interpretations may seem to be to others. I would defend their right to do this. It is when they move to enforce their adherents by trickery and manipulation, and other even more sinister means to follow these teachings, even to the point of giving their lives for it, that hackles start to rise. The punitive action that they take against those who try to bring change from within to these more dangerous teachings, shows the extent that they will go to control the thinking of others. This all about who has control of whose life and has very little to do with theology. Theology is the vehicle used to entrap.

  I do not follow the reasoning that everything that the WTS does or has done is bad and has to be destroyed. It does some good work, and I have personally seen it bring purpose to many otherwise blighted lives and provide a needed support system to others. Where its shadow falls over Christianity it reaps those benefits by default and I have no doubt that when its more dangerous leanings are dealt with, and they will be eventually by social changes if nothing else, many people will chose to stay with the WTS from a voluntary desire rather by being invisibly chained to it.

  Pressure from within and without has forced the WTS to conform to acceptable social standards in many areas of its teachings over the last 100 years, I give one small example above, continuing pressure will continue to bring many changes. Whether a person chooses to call this process 'reform' or use some other definition is not terribly important, what is important is that the innocent suffer no ill effects from their association with the WTS.

  My best to you -- HS
• 

  Tina

  Hi TMS,
  I can understand reforming death dealing policies that are in effect right now. I'm talking all kinds of death here. Emotional,psychological as well as physical.
  Other than the immediate needed relief,I'd like to see this goofy cult fade into obscurity. There is nothing beneficial about belonging to a totalitarian group such as this. Even without the blood and shunning policies,it's still a high control cultic org. Everything about it is a lie and would still cause personal damage.regards,tina
• 

  TMS

  Hillary, Maximus:

  Its obvious you're both men of personal integrity with genuine concern for others. You have my respect.

  Whereas the two of you work for change, I drown in cynicism and negativism.

  Your illustration of change effected in the organization by legal pressure, Hillary, is a good one, but like most changes I have observed in the WTBS, it is largely semantical. Yes, the specific sin of the banished one is no longer mentioned in the announcement(although a talk on that sin may be later given), but the congregation usually assumes the worst and the person is still shunned.

  The organization has largely stayed the same. Oh yes, contact point became service meeting became rendezvous became meeting for service. Area study became book study became service center became congregation book study. For a while they took away my middle initial and TMS became TS. Then it became TMS again. Probation became private or public reproof. And on and on.

  You are absolutely correct in saying that money talks. Many statements for public consumption have as their primary motivation the protection of company assets. Corporations do this. It is unlikely "George Jefferson" would be a spokesperson for Denny's Restaurants without the lawsuits alleging discrimination and the subsequent large awards. Still, blacks do not feel welcome ordering breakfast at Denny's.

  I sincerely hope that I am wrong about the changes you both hope to see. Don Quixote at least slowed the windmills down.

  TMS

  ps: My original statement on this thread contains unfortunate wording. "Waxing eloquent" implies a certain superficiality and grandstanding neither one of you employ. That phrase should be changed to "written eloquently".