Holidays: How do you refute the Exodus 32:4-10 argument

by Check_Your_Premises 20 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • AK - Jeff
    AK - Jeff

    I was always aware that I was pretty stupid - but not to this point! Geesh - the damn reasoning book is on the CD - what a dunce I am!

    Anyway - I think the whole argument is lame - esp the final analogy. Here is the section;

    Is there any objection to sharing in celebrations that may have unchristian roots as long as it is not done for religious reasons?

    Eph. 5:10, 11: "Keep on making sure of what is acceptable to the Lord; and quit sharing with them in the unfruitful works that belong to the darkness, but, rather, even be reproving them."

    2 Cor. 6:14-18: "What fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Be´lial? Or what portion does a faithful person have with an unbeliever? And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? . . . ‘"Therefore get out from among them, and separate yourselves," says Jehovah, "and quit touching the unclean thing"’; ‘"and I will take you in, . . . and you will be sons and daughters to me," says Jehovah the Almighty.’" (Genuine love for Jehovah and a strong desire to be pleasing to him will help a person to break free from unchristian practices that may have had emotional appeal. A person who really knows and loves Jehovah does not feel that by shunning practices that honor false gods or that promote falsehood he is in any way deprived of happiness. Genuine love causes him to rejoice, not over unrighteousness, but with the truth. See 1 Corinthians 13:6.)

    Compare Exodus 32:4-10. Notice that the Israelites adopted an Egyptian religious practice but gave it a new name, "a festival to Jehovah." But Jehovah severely punished them for this. Today we see only 20th-century practices associated with holidays. Some may appear harmless. But Jehovah observed firsthand the pagan religious practices from which these originated. Should not his view be what matters to us?


    Suppose a crowd come to a gentleman’s home saying they are there to celebrate his birthday. He does not favor the celebration of birthdays. He does not like to see people overeat or get drunk or engage in loose conduct. But some of them do all those things, and they bring presents for everyone there except him! On top of all that, they pick the birthday of one of the man’s enemies as the date for the celebration. How would the man feel? Would you want to be a party to it? This is exactly what is being done by Christmas celebrations.

    He does not favor the celebration of birthdays.

    They have provided no evidence that Jesus fits this description - that he does not favor Birthdays.

    He does not like to see people overeat or get drunk or engage in loose conduct.

    Many thoughtful Christians do not do these things to celebrate Christmas. The assertion is that they all do this!

    they bring presents for everyone there except him!

    And just how would celebrants today bring them to Jesus? He is already gone from the earth!

    On top of all that, they pick the birthday of one of the man’s enemies as the date for the celebration.

    They have neither proven this to be true - nor has anyone chosen a date of Jesus' enemy as the date. They have provided no conclusive evidence of this assertion.

    But Jehovah observed firsthand the pagan religious practices from which these originated. Should not his view be what matters to us?

    He also observed the origin of wedding rings, honeymoons, bridal veils, windchimes. Yet Jw's use these without thought.

    This entire argument is an effort to knock down a straw man, IMO.


  • Check_Your_Premises

    Thanks all... I didn't have time to run this one down. I appreciate all your input!


  • A Paduan
    A Paduan
    [2] And Aaron said to them, "Take off the rings of gold which are in the ears of your wives, your sons, and your daughters, and bring them to me." So all the people took off the rings of gold which were in their ears, and brought them to Aaron. And he received the gold at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, and made a molten calf; and they said, "These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt!" When Aaron saw this, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation and said, "Tomorrow shall be a feast to the LORD." And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt offerings and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. And the LORD said to Moses, "Go down; for your people, whom you brought up out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves; they have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them; they have made for themselves a molten calf, and have worshiped it and sacrificed to it, and said, `These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt!'" And the LORD said to Moses, "I have seen this people, and behold, it is a stiff-necked people; now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them; but of you I will make a great nation."

    The gold that is in the ears of your wives etc. are admissions of sin - this gold is such as was brought for a gift to the Lord, and a gift at his birth

    Aaron received their confessions (the gold), and the gods that the people fervently confessed to were revealed in this image - "When Aaron saw this" he made an altar, presenting this sacrifice to the Lord - b ut the people were sacrificing to their image of god .

    The passage tells of the images of god that people carry round in them, and of the notion of works

    And I said to them, `Let any who have gold take it off'; so they gave it to me, and I threw it into the fire, and there came out this calf."

    And they made a calf in those days, and offered a sacrifice to the idol and rejoiced in the works of their hands. (their works)


    Therefore take good heed to yourselves. Since you saw no form on the day that the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, beware lest you act corruptly by making a graven image for yourselves, in the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female, the likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the air, the likeness of anything that creeps on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the water under the earth.
    The image of god as a calf is described elsewhere

    "With their silver and gold they made idols for their own destruction. I have spurned your calf, O Sama'ria..... A workman made it; it is not God"
    And the joyous parent who decides to dispense with the idea of the works - "But when this son of yours came, who has devoured your living with harlots, you killed for him the fatted calf!" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    (see Revelation - there's an image in that story too - of a worshipped beast - and those who worship it trade their love - buying and selling)

  • metatron

    The Bible condemns celebrations of existing pagan religions that offer competition! The origins of Christmas, etc. are too long

    ago to make any difference, unless you fear the present influence of Druids or Wotan!

    The days of the week are pagan, the months of the year are pagan, Algebra came from pagans ( well, Muslims, anyway)

    Every US dollar bill has Occult symbols on it ( the 'All Seeing Eye/Pyramid') Does any one really think the Watchtower

    objects to collecting dollar bills? Duh!


  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog


    I thought of all that stuff first....I just type too damn slow!

    I thought I was slow before, but now I'm laughing so hard it will take a couple of days to type this message D Dog (of the slowest typing class)

  • Leolaia

    Passover was probably originally a Canaanite spring equinox harvest festival. Sukkoth is possibly a vestige of a Canaanite practice of building tents to honor the pantheon of gods during the fall harvest. Purim was likely a Persian festival that the Jews adopted.

  • mdb

    AK - Jeff,

    what Hebrew word was here translated "Jehovah" in the NWT? Is it elohim?

    So when Aaron [aharown] saw it [ra-ah], he built [banah] an altar [mizebeha] before [lipnay] it. And Aaron [aharown] made a proclamation [qara] and said, [amar] “Tomorrow [mahar] is a feast [hag] to the Lord. [yhwh]”
    Ex 32:5

    The WTS is pulling at sraws here. There is nothing in the passage stating they took up any Egyptian festival. I agree with those who said they plainly turned from the Lord and corrupted themselves.

    And the Lord said to Moses, “Go, get down! For your people whom you brought out of the land of Egypt have corrupted themselves. They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them. They have made themselves a molded calf, and worshiped it and sacrificed to it, and said, ‘This is your god [elohim], O Israel, that brought you out of the land of Egypt!’”
    Ex 32:7,8

  • Terry

    In for a penny; in for a pound.

    Compare the religion of the jews BEFORE Bablyon with the religion AFTER Babylon and you'll see that just about everything changed.

    This clash is what produced the bible!

    The returning group of Babylon-influenced jews had changed so much from those left behind (the non-bourgeoise) there was little culturally, ethnically or religiously they could agree about!

    This collision of peoples required a sifting.

    The "discovered" law put in writing the ATTEMPT to weld this people back together religiously by doing three things:

    1.Allow a common history as far as possible that would serve as a common background

    2.Allow different versions of the same familiar stories to remain side by side without making one group orthodox in the process. (Multiple iterations of creation, the flood, etc.)

    3.Create a form of apologia that could be used to address any new problems by allowing a kind of legal precedent (employing God as the arbiter).

    The names of the Hebrew months of the year changed, personal names changed, ideas of right and wrong (as embodied by God and Satan) changed, rituals and philosophy all changed by this merge.

    But, this bifurcated DOCUMENT (the holy law of Moses) and surrounding legends, myths, family stories served to weld the NATION as a whole.

    Why do I mention this?

    The argument referencing Exodus 32:4-10 is just a latter day instance of a RE-INTERPRETATION of the role of Moses and Aaron as priests as it became redacted by decendants of each family.

    What the Watchtower Society is doing is a kind of latter-day further redaction for their own doctrinal purposes. It mirrors what happened over and over through history by groups as they sought to PROVE THEIR OPINION by making it orthodoxy.

    There is no THERE there.


    p.s. Look at the days of the week we use now and the months of the year. They are saturated with false gods' names. Even the Watchtower uses these "tainted by false religion" days and months on their magazines and publications.

  • peacefulpete

    Hanukah aka 'the Festival of Lights', as celebrated by Jesus in the Gospels, was a winter solstice celebration. The rededication of the temple was timed to coincide with it.

  • IP_SEC

    Dont be all worried about days and seazin my beotches. -- the apostizle paulizzle

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