Blanket Bomb Or Snipe?

by hillary_step 41 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Kent

  Hi Hillary;

  The question is interesting, but I think you are quite a bit unbalanced in your statements of claim. You say: “Why do some of us attack JW’s as people and who are our real targets?” This is a question I’d like to answer, because you seem to look upon JWs with Watchtower tinted glasses – putting one and all into one big bag, all the same. That’s black and whit thinking, and your argument looses lots of weight because of that.

  Let me ask you one thin:

  Why should I respect a liar and a cheat?

  You may say ALL JWs aren’t liars and cheats – bit if they’re not; they’re not Jehovah’s Witnesses! You of all people should be perfectly aware of the “Theocratic Warfare Strategy”, and the Watchtower’s definition of “LIE”.

  Let me give you an example. On Norwegian Television, Thor Samuelsen, the Norwegian Branch Coordinator, told the Norwegian public the Jehovah’s Witnesses had NEVER encouraged or promoted corporal punishment! This he did just after Norwegian Authorities had DEMANDED THE WATCHTOWER REMOVED THESE ENCOURAGEMENTS IN THEIR LITERATURE!

  Thor Samuelsen is a Jehovah’s Witness, and every other Jehovah’s Witness – as well as the rest of the Norwegian public could hear and SEE that he was lying. That was proven in the program. What do you think happened when the JWs were asked in their “field work”? The Watchtower had NEVER; they said, encouraged or promoted such teachings.

  What we have here, Hillary, is clear lies. I don’t give a flying shit if the assholes call it “theocratic warfare strategy” – or “Helping the interests of Jehovah”. They are liars and cheats – plain and simple.

  It’s OK to claim they are “victims”, and I’m sure we can (with a doubt) agree to that. But – as AlanF said – they are WILLING victims. Nobody actually FORCES them to parrot the Watchtower. Most people here have investigated things, used their brain, and found out what’s up. ANY JW CAN DO THE SAME!

  To really fire up the discussion, I could say the JWs being JWs in the name just because they “don’t want to loose their family” – and no other reason – are bleeding cowards! Actually they are no better than SS Guards during WWII, which also claimed to be “under order”! Harsh? Maybe, but is it true? Unfortunately: YES!

  So, I’m afraid I don’t have all that sympathy for your typical “JW elder way” of handling this question. People following a system that suppresses others, hide child molesters and murderers, doesn’t really have my pity. They are free to leave – to the expense that decision will unfortunately bring. But so what?

  Let me be even more “crazy” and “evil”. Why keep on being an asshole to be able to talk to assholes that don’t want to talk to YOU – they just accept it as long as the Watchtower allows them to! I don’t give a shit if those people are husband, wife, children or Satan’s Mother in Law. They are not worth the tears or the concern in my book!

  I guess this will heat up the discussion – but do you HONESTLY disagree with what I’m saying?

  Would you still disagree if I used “nice words” and wrapped the truth in 1000 layers of cotton?

  Yakki Da

  Kent

  "The only difference between a fool and the JW legal department is that a fool might be sympathetic ."

  Daily News On The Watchtower and the Jehovah's Witnesses:
  http://watchtower.observer.org
• 

  hillary_step

  Hello Kent,

  Thank you for your comments, as ever vigorously made!

  If I have given the appearance of black and white thinking in my posts, I have failed to make my point clearly. I was actually attempting to address the issue of how some XJW’s might have a ‘black and white’ view of JW’s. All bad, no good. Alan and I were trying in our communication with one another to grapple with the very complex issue of ascertaining at what stage JW’s become victims, willing victims, and whether the depth of mental conditioning by the WTS is perhaps underestimated. I also raised the point as to whether our frustrations which would be directed at the WTS leaders are sometimes heaped on their hapless victims - an act imho, though understandable, of little true value and eventaully demeaning to the 'heaper'.

  You note:

  That’s black and whit thinking, and your argument looses lots of weight because of that.

  Kent, surely what is black and white thinking is the ‘us and them’, ‘saints or sinners’ mentality. What I am trying to do is to reach a point of balance in my own understanding, and perhaps others looking in, of how we should deal with JW’s . What should it be, building bridges of kindness over which some may cross, or a passage through a gauntlet of hostility?

  Why should I respect a liar and a cheat?

  I have no respect for liars and cheats, hence my desire to hit the true targets. I see little nobility in attacking those who have gullibly believed the liar

  Thor Samuelsen is a Jehovah’s Witness, and every other Jehovah’s Witness – as well as the rest of the Norwegian public could hear and SEE that he was lying. That was proven in the program. What do you think happened when the JWs were asked in their "field work"? The Watchtower had NEVER; they said, encouraged or promoted such teachings.

  Rice once said ‘A lie has always a certain amount of weight with those who wish to believe it’. The JW’s have spent sometimes decades within a system of mental manipulation which allows their own conscience to become inhabited by the WTS. The WTS sets within their minds, during this process values which allows them to control what a person thinks is a lie or not. The average JW does not know what he believes to be a lie or truth until he is instructed by this WTS on this issue. I say ‘average’ JW as of course you always have those who’s ‘processing’ is not as successful as others.

  Nobody actually FORCES them to parrot the Watchtower.

  This is an oversimplification Kent, especially given the very subtle forms of brain games that the WTS plays with its adherents.

  So, I’m afraid I don’t have all that sympathy for your typical "JW elder way" of handling this question. People following a system that suppresses others, hide child molesters and murderers, doesn’t really have my pity. They are free to leave – to the expense that decision will unfortunately bring. But so what?

  I feel that the JW’s are mentally abused and in some cases abused beyond the imaginable, subsequently, yes, I do have pity for them. I am not sure what you mean by ‘JW elder way’ Kent, I may be wrong but I do not think that it meant to be a compliment!

  Best of luck to you and did you get to the wedding? - HS
• 

  bigboi

  Point blank, there is too much info that most witnesses do not have access to. To what degree that ingorance is willful or not I don't know. Take my own experience as an example. I left the WTS around April '98. I didn't have access to the internet in my home until Dec '00. Up til that time I still felt that the WTS was being used by God. I cannot ssy that I didn't have any misgivings, but what eveidence could I have been expected to come up with that could refute 7 yrs of indoctrination by the WTS on my own. I know others have done it, but those cases are rare from my understanding. I would also venture to say that most of the discoveries that set them on their path to uncovering the WTS happened by accident.

  I feel that most jws are unwitting participants in WTS deception. If they do ever find out about the lies they are told, by then they are so tied down into the WTS way of life they may see any attempt to break away from it as intolerable.

  ONE....

  bigboi

  "life's a bitch a with a g-string and a twelve pack of Busch."
• 

  larc

  I try to keep in mind, how I thought when I was a Witness. Having been raised in it, I was a true believer. At that stage, an attack on my beliefs would have had no effect whatsoever. I did not have any doubts until I was about 18 years old and I started to read the old Russell and Rutherford books. These were an eye opener and very unsettling. At this stage, I was still a believer, but with nagging doubts. At this stage, I could have accepted negative information from others, but in only very small doses. Next, I entered a stage where I didn't believe, but had a nastalgia (sp?) for the religion and wished I could return to innocent belief again. I finally reached the stage where I didn't believe it and was glad I didn't. This whole process took me several years. Even though this transpired many years ago, I try to remember the way I thought at each of these stages and take this into account when I deal with JWs or xJWs.
• 

  Kent

  Hi Hillary;

  I don't forget the fact that mind control and manipulation are strong weapons, and I don't deny that JWs in many respects are victims.

  But that's not an excuse good enough to shelter pedophiles and murderers. It's not even a good enough excuse for being a liar!

  This is the SS and Nazi trial in a new wrapping. YOU claim they shouldn't be sentenced and stigmatized because they were mind controlled and under orders, whiule I say the excuse doesn't hold water.

  Any rank and file JW KNOWS he's lying when he denies facts he knows for certain are true. I simply don't respect that at all - and I don't pity a liar that get's what's coming.

  Building bridges between different groups are fine - but if I'm to be on a narrow bridge with someone, I will be able to trust that person to a certain degree - and I wouldn't trust a JW two seconds. That's the truth, my friend.

  Bigboy says there is too much info most witnesses don't have access to, and that's also partly correct. Partly because the information IS there if they want to get it!

  When I talked about "JW elder" ways of speaking, it was neither a compliment nor a sarcasm. It was just an observation. Your reasoning is extremely familiar to me - coming from JW elders:)

  I believe Norm did say lots of what I wanted to say in another post, so I can leave it with that. But I still don't buy the "turning the other cheek" stuff. Dentists are expensive these days, and personally I rather hit before I'm getting a blow myself.

  Yakki Da

  Kent

  "The only difference between a fool and the JW legal department is that a fool might be sympathetic ."

  Daily News On The Watchtower and the Jehovah's Witnesses:
  http://watchtower.observer.org
• 

  bigboi

  Larc:

  I can relate to your stages of ( for lack of a better term, I sometimes make up my own) disindoctrination. When I got online I was at the stage where I could accept negative things being said about the WTS. This was primarily because of the things I saw happening on my job involving a broter I worked with. He was a backstabber and listened to gossip about me and tried to use it against me. He even tried to induce me to fight him so he could get me fired. You see, when I made my decision to leave the WTS I thought I would be treated with respect. However, this person turned out to be very jealous and vindictive. I think he wanted to get me disfellowshipped because many at our congregation still spoke highly of me and told him that they missed me.

  I guess all our personal circumstances are just sooooo different, yet they are the same. Like similar illnesses with different symptoms. It is hard to tell exactly which kind of person you are dealing with. Something said by one poster may be interpreted negatively by some and seen in an altogether different manner by others.

  ONE....

  bigboi

  "life's a bitch a with a g-string and a twelve pack of Busch."
• 

  hillary_step

  Kent,

  Again, thank you for your comments.

  You note -

  This is the SS and Nazi trial in a new wrapping. YOU claim they shouldn't be sentenced and stigmatized because they were mind controlled and under orders, whiule I say the excuse doesn't hold water.

  The Nuremburg trials, and that is what I think you are alluding to, actually acts to self-defeat your own argument Kent and elevate my own, as culpability for the Nazi crimes in the summation of those hearings, were placed firmly and squarely on the backs of the leaders, not the led. Around 100 men who held Europe in its palm. My point is that the WTS leaders bear culpability, especially one particular one and his tiny enclave of disciples, 'The Boss', and we all know who that is. Some of us are working in situations of great pressure and difficulty to both ourselves and our families so that we may effectively hit the real target. My ire is not raised against JW's but those who lead them.

  When I talked about "JW elder" ways of speaking, it was neither a compliment nor a sarcasm. It was just an observation. Your reasoning is extremely familiar to me - coming from JW elders:)

  Re-read my posts Kent, if you think that they are the reasoning of a typical JW elder, then I believe that you have missed the spirit of what I am trying to present.

  Anyway, we can beg to differ and hopefully still work the same land. I agree, these posts have probably thrashed the issue to within and inch of its life, lets move on.

  Have a good weekend - HS
• 

  hillary_step

  Larc,

  Your posts leave me transfixed, so much wisdom in so few words. What is your secret!

  My best to you - HS
• 

  jonjonsimons

  Hello Hillary,
  I must admit your post struck a chord in my heart, but from a totally different perspective. You want to know why some XJW's treat all current JW's with loathing? Call me naive but I see it coming from the other direction. Why do most current JW's treat XJW's with such hatred? I'm not referring to the doctrinal issue of shunning either, I'm talking about human civility. For example, there are some JW's that I have known my entire life that will not only pass me on the street without speaking, but will look at me as if I had no right to be on the street at all. I've had elders in the congo that I grew up in snicker to their wives and actually point at me in the grocery store! Still there are others that will quietly ask me how I am doing when we meet in public while nervously watching over their shoulder to make sure no one has noticed. Believe me the cordial ones are in the minority. I was raised a JW and was taught that I should love all people. Mabey I took that too literally? When I was still in the borg, I truly grieved for my friends who were DF'd and I would search for ways to let them know that I was there for them. I would make eye contact with them at meetings and try to "bump" into them in public to make sure they knew I trully cared for them as people and not just about their status as a JW. Most current JW's I know that follow the shunning doctrine of the WT seem to do it with glee. It's like they enjoy the hell out of making someone feel miserable. I've witnessed it in my own family and it makes my heart sick! I understand your question Hillary, and I agree that there are some XJW's that despise all current JW's. But I must tell you that from my personal experience, it has mainly been the other way around.

  The only comment I have on the victims portion of your post is that I agree with Kent. A victim is only a victim if they allow themselves to be. And just to clarify I'm talking about adults, not children.

  Peace and love to you and yours,
  Jon
• 

  hillary_step

  Hello JonJon,

  Thank you for your note and most interesting viewpoint and you certainly have a valid point. Such behavior is truly disusting and to be repuduiated, and as you note, though scared some do fight the dogma and treat you with some respect. What makes these ones that fight the programming different? It is the psychological reactions, both JW and XJW to one another that really interests me and is at the root of the questions that I was originally trying to ask.

  JonJon forgive them for they probably know not what they do, may be the only way to cope! This arrogant behavior is perhaps the result of being force-fed arrogant slogans month after month, year after year, sometimes for decades until the heart becomes welded to them.

  Peace and love to you and yours,

  and the very same to you JonJon -- HS