David2002 Please Reply on Point!

by AK - Jeff 24 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • AK - Jeff
    AK - Jeff

    On another thread David2002 said;

    Regarding, 1975: I have asked brother who were in the truth prior to 1975 about whether or not they believed the end was coming. The vast majority tell me "no." I even know one sister who told me that her mother thought it was coming, but the daughter advised her not to fall into that conclusion. The fact is most Witnesses did not think the end of world was coming in 1975 because none of the publications stated that it will come. People quote titles of WT, but when you like at the text you find clearly statement that it is not known what 1975 will bring. The only thing that is known is that humankind will completed 6,000 years of existance in that year (which appears to held today). The Truth book which was used around that time, containing the basic Bible doctrines, does not mention 1975. True, the Truth book quoted from Famine 1975, but it said nothing about the end coming that year. ( I think people are pushing it when they mention that quoted book as prove the end is coming. The book was quote along with some other to show that there would be severe hunger problems in the world in the last days.)

    I then relpied - but got no answer. I would like to have an honest answer to these questions. Also other posters made very insightful and accurate comments which were not responded to. Perhaps your schedule has not allowed a response. If you now have time to reply, please do so. I really want to know how these significant issues can be ignored by anyone who honestly I await. Below is the body of my reply from that previous thread. I apologize for the lateness in which I answer this comment you directed at me two days back. I work an odd schedule and did not get a chance to see this until just now.

    Well, as I already stated, I did live thru the '75 fiasco, David. Every single witness I knew believed the end was coming then. And though the organization had gotten better at cloaking the prophetic utterances by then [having failed at a dozen or more dates previous to this one], the basic leading of the organization from about mid 1960's was that of great and agitated expectation. Talks at conventions were pointed and clear - they did not spell it out - but they were obviously convinced that we were on the heals of the end. The terminology was convincing to those looking to this organization to tell us how to gain life. The expression 'just a few more months', and 'we are on the brink of something significant' appeared in the pubs time and time again. One Watchtower had 1975 in huge block letters across the front.

    If you see a woman dressed in red, at midnight, standing on the corner and waving at all in passing, offering to keep one company on a lonely night, she does not have to be wearing a sign that says "I am a whore". The signs were there and obvious. Many on this board and other boards were there and saw it. IT was HUGE! I was cautioned not to pursue an education out of high school due the fact I would not be able to use it before the end came. Today my life has been adversely affected by this advise in both the pages of the Watchtower and from the lips of elders. They were proclaiming that the message was about over - the final call. Get in or die. Those repeated warnings that highlighted 1975 were the same as that hooker. If you were there you could not ignore it - or pretend it wasn't being said. You don't have to yell 'I am a hooker" for those around to know it. Even those we met in the ministry were aware of the level of anticipation we were putting on that date. They even told us sometimes that we were headed for trouble when this didn't happen - we would be labeled as false prophets. OF course we did not listen.

    Regarding the "truth' book. You have certainly been made aware of the duplicity of the organization in that regard. You are well aware of the web sites of both apologist and Watchtower critics, as you have demonstrated here numerous times. You are then aware of the quote in the "TRUTH" book that was made by Dean Achaeson? The quote in which he said that by 1975 the world would be too dangerous a place in which to live. Or to that effect? That was in the 1968 version - like the one I taught people to expect the end by 1975 from when I pioneered in those days. Then lo' and behold in the later versions - like the one you can access from your WT-CDROM - all of a sudden the mention of 1975 was removed. The part of the quote that referenced 1975 had miraculously disapeared. Why is that? By the time the book was revised, we as witnesses were no longer using it for Bible students. Why change it in the 80's? What was this organization hiding? Was this not intellectual dishonesty to do that? To erase ones mistakes of public record is the act of a guilty person - not one who has nothing to hide.

    Furthermore - if the Catholic Church or the Protestant Church or any other church had made such outrageous claims, even praising those who would sell off all thier belongings in order to pioneer till the end was here - that quote was in a Kingdom Ministry of 1974 if I recall - I can access these actual quotes if needed, but you know all too well what they said and where they are - back on thought - if those other 'false religions' had made such outrageous claims, the WTS would have had an article entitled "Will You Trust these Prophets?"- probably with a picture of Billy Graham or some other religious leader on the cover. The articles would have ripped to shredds those who made such claims and then would have directed people to God's only True Organization for life. You know that would have happened, if the shoe was on the other foot. In fact they have done just that in so many places. They have pointed out the falsehoods of religion in every issue of the Watchtower I ever saw. But when they make mistakes that are as culpable as any made by other religions they sweep it away with reprints. Or excuse it away with claims of imperfection. Is that not duplicity of the highest order?

    When I came into the 'Truth', the organisation had for a couple of decades decreed that the superior authorities of Romans 13 were Jehovah God and Jesus. They had declared this as 'truth' since Rutherford's era. Yet I challange you! Open your Bible and read that chapter - do it right now. I will wait! Tell me honestly that any 12 year old could not read that and know it was talking about the governments as the superior authorities. It is absolutely crystal clear isn't it? The churches all had it right. They were able to read God's word just fine and see what this meant. Yet the people who were supposedly being directed by the King Jesus, who before Rutherford taught that the superior authorities were the governments, had it wrong for decades, in spite of the fact that it was easy to see what the writer meant. So the "Light was Bright' for Christendom and the "light went out" for the witnesses during that period? Why did Jehova do that? Was it needed for him to change in mid stream? I don't think so. And neither do you, I suspect. Yet, if prior to 1963 - when the decision was made to accept that God had it right when he inspired them - someone stood up and stated that the organization had it wrong about what the Bible said in this matter they would be disfellowshipped. As an apostate. Yet clearly the apostates were the organization. They had rebelled against what any 12 year old could see that the Bible stated. The Bible is God's word. So in revoking His clear statements and replacing them with a wrong understanding, the organization became apostate.

    Yet some were excommunicated for agreeing with God and telling others that they should also in matters of this sort. This in spite of the fact that that person may have been of the 'annointed' - thus part of the Faithful Slave class as taught by the organization, charged with dispensing 'truth' according to WTS dogma.

    Think of the countless lives ruined when one objects - even on correct grounds - to the organizational position on a doctrine such as this. The society clearly places itself in the place of God. There might even be a scripture that applies to that kind of apostasy - I think you know where it is too, so I do not quote it here. If the shoe fits the organization should wear it though.

    David - you are clearly intelligent. You are not lacking in ablility however to fool others into accepting false reasoning. I do not believe that your God or anyone else's will bless that. It is not humble.

    The misapplication of the 'New Light' doctrine has been discussed. The scripture has been clearly taken from context, and without it the WTS is in big trouble to explain all these changes in doctrine. Some of them have caused people to die. The organ transplant issue is one of them. The refusal of vacinations as against God and His standards is another. Will you accept that it was just new light one day when they declare it now acceptable to take blood - the light just got brighter - and in it's wake of misunderstanding we are sorry for the tens of thousands of your dead children, and husbands and wives and parents and uncles and brothers?

    They are culpable on so many levels that it hard to imagine. They have played God in matters that makes them bloodguilty. They have killed just a surely as have the churches. They have not ordered young men to war, but they have taught people to die without needed treatment, then changed thier minds in the blink of an eye. This is not 'new light' - this is foolish light that kills and maims, makes widows and orphans, leaves families with no means of support, leads many to lose faith in God in fact. To mimimize the impact of these massive doctrinal moves is to make God a little paper-machet [sp] puppet in a box. It is insulting to mislead people then blame it on God being late or wrong with the information. But all is well now that we have 'new light' - oops sorry your child had to die last week before the Shekinah Light came on.

    If this is the most crucial time in man's history - if the WTS is the link we need to worship God with approval to survive the great and heartless slaughter that Jw's say is on the brink - then why did God not get it right when he issued this light? He got it right with Moses and only a few million lives were at stake. He got it right with Jeremiah and only a few million lives were at stake. Now in this most crucial period of man's existence - the time in which determining to be or not to be a JW will decide your eternal future - and for 6 Billion people eternal death apparently - why had God missed and corrected and edited and changed and wavered and hid and manipulated and played all these games?

    I am certain that the True God I worship would not do this! Jesus did not represent Him that way. Neither do I. I am positive that if God issued some new light to me He would get it right on the first try. Otherwise He did not issue it.


  • AuldSoul


    I tried one of these, too...

    David2002, "Bible as the authority" thread...

    I don't think he responds to them. Maybe you will get lucky.


  • metatron

    What is this nonsense, rewriting Watchtower history? Speculation about 1975 was widespread amoung Witnesses.

    Did they absolutely believe that the end would come in 1975? No, but they were certainly obsessed with the idea - and the con artists

    at the Watchtower encouraged it. I know, I lived thru it.


  • AK - Jeff
    AK - Jeff

    AS - I missed that. Sorry. I have not been online too much in the past few days.

    Metatron - yep. Me too. Hell, I was so worried that I would not get them all warned in time, that when the Kingdom News Tracts started coming out in 1973, I walked for hours in the rain like a drenched rat to make sure I got them out. It was if it was sitting on the horizon and we saw it with our eyes of foolishness faith.


  • scotsman

    We had a fire and brimstone C.O. prior to '75 who had everyone ready to flea to the Pentland Hills that surround Edinburgh. My parents weren't the sort to cash in all their chips (unlike some) but we did stockpile food (lentils for some reason) and my mother bought a sheepskin coat in case the big A came in winter.

    '75 came and went, the lentils became soup, the coat went out of fashion and the C.O. died without seeing the paradise earth.

  • Forscher

    I well remember those days. The motto was "stay alive 'til 75". In fact, if you google "Sunutko", you will find a link to an MP# of him using that motto in a talk at an assembly. I was discouraged from going to college as well. Just in case our friend wants to doubt that many believed what they were told, all he needs to do is look at the statistics for the time. Right after 1975, growth went flat and many people left the organization. It wasn't until the fall of Communism, 20 years later that growth figures would get anywhere near the levels they peaked at in the early 70s.

  • biloxi girl
    biloxi girl

    How well I remember Sunutko and "stay alive 'til 75". I was baptized in April 1974 "hoping and praying to save the lives of my children and myself" In my opinion anyone saying we were not led to believe Armageddon would happen in 1975 didn't live it like some of us did or they have never read the publications, they were much more adamant about it at assemblies and conventions than they were in the publications however and I heard it all! Sandi of the been there done that crowd

  • AK - Jeff
    AK - Jeff

    And, ahem, David2002, would you like to weigh in.....?


  • coffee_black

    I lived through it too.... I remember a talk that summer at the District assembly where the speaker said that "this is no time to be toying with Jesus' words: 'no man knows the day or the hour'.

    My dentist (a jw) sold her practice and she along with her husband pioneered. They thought they had just enough to last until armageddon. Well he died and she was had to go back to work as a dentist in her late 70s because the money ran out. She died a few years ago.

    I think jws have selective amnesia....


  • TallTexan
    The vast majority tell me "no."...The fact is most Witnesses did not think the end of world was coming in 1975 because none of the publications stated that it will come. People quote titles of WT, but when you like at the text you find clearly statement that it is not known what 1975 will bring. The only thing that is known is that humankind will completed 6,000 years of existance in that year (which appears to held today).

    Uhhhhh....yeah they did. And the publications did all BUT outright state "ARMAGEDDON WILL BE HERE IN 1975!" Heavy hinting, alluding to things such as "How glorious it would be if Jehovah chose that year to bring the big A", signing it out in pictionary, whatever they did, most JW's thought the end WAS coming in 1975 and lived their lives as such.

    Truth book quoted from Famine 1975, but it said nothing about the end coming that year. ( I think people are pushing it when they mention that quoted book as prove the end is coming. The book was quote along with some other to show that there would be severe hunger problems in the world in the last days.)

    If you've read Olafsson's book on the Sign of the End, you'll know that the 'severe hunger problems' are simply not present in any more (in fact, less) severity than they have been in any other century. As usual, these quotes were not only taken out of context, but present a picture that is simply not true, it serves only to alarm the masses into thinking the end is near.....

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