I agree , if you believe in jesus it is thru faith , the written word was obviously distorted but usually the findamental teachings of christ are very clear in all translations . Since God is recorded as having foreordained all things in conection with his will then you have to follow that up with the belief that the bible has all you need to survive and worship even tho religion may not present the facts corectly. As mentioned to there is the holy spirit that supposedly helps in determining the truth .
"Misquoting Jesus" - New Book by Ehrman
by sir82 26 Replies latest watchtower bible
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yaddayadda
So, my 2 choices are "believe in God" or "find an excuse to abnegate moral responsibility to God"? I took only one course in logic, but that sounds suspiciously like a "false dichotomy".
Ok, let me rephrase that to 'Believe in God' or 'Not believe in God'. There, is that a fairer dichotomy?
My suggestion to also read books by pro-new testament scholars was entirely reasonable. Anyone truly seeking objectivity would give equal consideration to both sides of the argument. Your defensive response implies you've already made your mind up. You'll find lots of justification and reinforcement here buddy. Coming on a forum like this and asking for thoughts about some author that trashes the gospels is like going to a Republican party convention and asking everyones opinion about a book that trashes the Democrats. Dumb.
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skyman
Touchy are we.
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sir82
Yadda,
In my original post, I made this request:
I'd be interested in hearing comments from Christian apologists, as well as, um, anti-Christian apologists(?)
I am looking for comments from both "sides" of the aisle. I am well aware that many on this forum are atheists, or at least have no inclination to believe in God as the Bible presents him. However, I am also interested in the opinions of others who, even after being lied to and/or mistreated by the JWs for year or even decades, have emerged with a strong faith in God. I respect that, I admire it. I wish I had their faith.
I wanted to hear from them, something along theses lines: "Even though there are problems with the manuscripts, I still believe the Bible is the Word of God for [whatever] reasons." I am interested in the [whatever]. Obviously, I can (and should) read a variety of books on the topic, and I do plan to read more. That will give me a broader picture, and, as you say, help me make up my own mind.
But I was curious about the reaction of Bible-believing Christians to the arguments made in the book. I presented, in an abbreviated form, some of the problems presented by the author, for the benefit of those who had not yet read this book, as it was published very recently.
I would expect that someone who has such a stong faith, though, would have considered these topics beforehand. That their faith would have overcome these obstacles. I want to know how faith overcame these obstacles, for particular individuals.
I fear, though, that many who have such faith have never considered these questions. I know that I never did during decades of full-bore JWism. The Society said "The Bible is true, we can rely on it", and that was good enough for me. I was totally in the dark as to the issues raised in this book. It was, in retrospect, a blind faith.
I am curious about your comment:
some author that trashes the gospels
1) I'm not sure, but I'm guessing you have not read the book. Have you read anything by the author? Or just snippets of opinions of the author, presented by other "world class historians"?
2) Perhaps I'm missing something. If someone says "Author X trashes the gospels", I would expect him to write something like "The gospels are full of lies, that crap never happened, Jesus was an impostor, and Christians are misled stooges".
What I read instead in this book is, "The original writings were made 2000 years ago. For 1500 of those years, all copies were made by hand. There are demonstrable problems in how those copies were made, as evidenced by [A, B, C, D, etc.]. Here is how some persons have tried to resolve the problems. Yet, there are still doubts as to what words originally came from the author".
Raising questions, and pointing out problems caused by scribes who lived centuries after the original writings, is "trashing the gospels"? Sorry, I just don't see it.
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acadian
Hello All,
Haven't read the book, but listened to the NPR show on it.
I found it very interesting , but nothing new, had been researching same for years.
That led me to research who the Nazarene's were, and what they believed and taught.Acts 24:5 (Amplified Bible) 5 For we have found this man a perfect pest (a real plague), an agitator and source of disturbance to all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the [heretical, division-producing] sect of the Nazarenes.
And what I found is a bit differant than what the bible teaches.
Kind Regards
Acadian -
ithinkisee
I like the book, haven't finished it yet. The book has pros and cons. I totally would not simply take his word on everything. He has written a good book, but I wouldn't call it amazing. It is worthing reading, but don't build your enitre lifes beliefs upon it. He has come to his conclusions, but they are not going to be mine. Each of us has the chioce what to believe and what not to believe. I do think it is a good read, just remember that it's not the only opinion out there.
Agreed. I like his writing style particularly because it is easy to read and less technical. You should still read the references in his bibliography and make your own conclusions.
I'll have to say, I learned much from his past books though. I was blown away when I learned from his book (and subsequently researched) that Matt, Mark, Luke, and John were not written by the people they are named after. That threw me for a loop there.
-ithinkisee
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NowImFree
I'm going out on a limb here, being totally honest about what happened to me. I have always believed in God since I was a little kid. I was raised as a JW and in my late 30's I started seeing things in the organization that just didn't seem right to me. Something just didn't "feel" right. I had been on and off inactive and the whole child molestation scandal really shocked me. It was then that I really started asking God to show me in his word if I really had the "truth" or not, and if I was believing the correct teachings about Jesus. I totally thought that by reading the bible, it would solidify my faith in JW teachings. Instead, the bible exploded everything I had ever believed. I now believe the bible more than I ever did as a JW because the more I read it, the more I realized that it is supernatural. When I would ask God to help me understand something or to show me the answer on something, the next time I would open up my bible, the answer would be right there. People can say over and over again, that these things were all just coincidences, but this happened to me over and over and over. I tell people that the bible is what deprogrammed me and got me out of the JW organization. I am now a Christian and no human taught me, the Holy Spirit taught me, my conversion happened strictly from reading the bible. Also, I know that I feel different when I read the bible. I never felt that way when I read the Watchtower literature, even though I thought I should feel that way when I read their stuff. It is hard to put into words, but I really believe based on my own experience, that God's Spirit is present in his word. This may sound dumb to most of you but Sir82 sincerely asked what makes us have faith so I had to tell my story, even if alot of you don't believe.
NowImFree