What is faith REALLY?

by Silverleaf 47 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  AGuest

  Dearest Proplog2... may you have peace!

  Actually, dear one, you've got it backward: you have to have a modicum of faith... FIRST. The events that occurred before were to BUILD faith. But that, dear one, was for FLESHLY Israel. 'Spiritual' Israel, however... those who walk NOT by sight, but by SPIRIT... HAVE faith... and such events then are the 'reward'.

  To wit: you have to do the work (exercise faith) FIRST; THEN... you get 'paid' (eyes of the blind opened and ears of the deaf unstopped). How MUCH faith (work)? Less than a mustardseed. As you can see, then, I was QUITE sad when my Lord told me that I had such faith, and it was what he GAVE me that added up TO a 'mustard seed'. If my faith was THAT tiny... where, dear Lord, was everyone else's? A good look here... and in the 'religion'... and most the world over... will tell you. It is 'nonexistent'. My heart was GREATLY saddened by that.

  If you want to 'have lunch with an angel', then, you have to have FAITH that it can... and WILL... occur. And you, like many others might SAY you have such faith; words, however, will not suffice: my Father, and thus my Lord, know TRULY... what is in the HEART. If you think you have faith, then, do an HONEST assessment: check your heart. Do you REALLY have faith? Indeed, 'when the Son of Man arrives... will he REALLY find faith in the earth'? A question we must all ask... ourselves.

  Conflicted, peace to you, too... and again, you are a bit in error. You have ASSUMED that I consider the gospel according to John 'inspired', but you are incorrect. I consider all SCRIPTURE... 'inspired'... and as my Lord has taught me, the only writings in the Bible that are 'scripture'... are Moses (which are not all there), the Prophets (which are not all there), the Psalms... and the Revelation. And indeed, my Lord did not leave himself 'without witness', for he himself tells us what is 'scripture':

  Luke 24:27, 44, 45

  I did not learn this, however, by reading the account in Luke. My Lord TOLD it to me... and I told it to others, just as he said it to ME. We put faith in what we 'heard', but imagine our great JOY... when we also saw it in writing. Some, however, NEED to see it in writing... on 'stone tablets' and in 'delible ink', before they can 'put faith' in it. That is why my Lord directs me to use what is 'written'... for THEIR benefit... those WITHOUT faith. But for me... he told me; I believed him. I did not NEED to see it in writing, for he has not deceived me yet, but in ALL things he has spoken truth.

  Proverbs 8:8, 9

  That, then, is the 'thing': many SAY they have faith, but such 'faith' is impotent... because it has to be given PHYSICAL 'proof'. That, then, is NOT faith... but in fact, is doubting. And James said, "Let not the man that DOUBTS suppose he will receive ANYTHING. He is an INDECISIVE man (well, yeah, I believe, I have faith... but you gotta SHOW me somethin', too)... 'unsteady in ALL his ways."

  Faith, then, dear ones... is the ASSURED EXPECTATION of the things 'hoped for'. You KNOW you are to receive it, see it, hear it, taste it, touch it, smell it... although NOT with your physical flesh... NOT 'beheld'. You want to 'have lunch' with an angel, proplog2? Where, then, is your FAITH?

  I bid you all peace... and the 'gift' of the spirit that IS faith... from the person of my Father, the Holy One of Israel, JAH OF ARMIES, through His Christ, my Lord... JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH... if indeed, you so 'wish' it. And rather than simply SAY you do wish it, I exhort you, beloved ones... CHECK YOUR HEARTS... and see... for sure.

  I am your servant, and a slave of Christ,

  SJ
• 

  Silverleaf

  Hello Shelby, thanks for responding.
  I have to be honest, I re-read your posts over several times and I still have trouble understanding your meanings. I do apologize if I sound sarcastic, I really, really don’t mean to be.

  You wrote:
  Did you really get that out of what I was permitted to share? REALLY? Your dog 'rolls in the crap', SLeaf... be he/she's... A DOG. Now, if your dog got lost, say 3,500 miles from home, but somehow made it back... I would not hesitate to say... he asked... and was 'guided' and that perhaps that's why some DON'T make it back. I have not asked my Lord on this matter, so in truth, I do not know. <<

  I understand what you’re saying, however, just as the same applies to humans, to say that an individual [whether a human or an animal] asks for help from the Lord and receives it because they had faith and asked sincerely, is fine, but to say that an individual who asks for help or guidance and does not receive it, does not because they were not sincere, or did not have enough faith or the right faith or did not ask the right way, falls short as an explanation.

  >>And how exactly can a plant disobey?
  
  As I said to DWilt, "Do you recall the fig tree that refused to produce food for the Son of God? Producing food was the very purpose of that tree's existence; yet, when called upon to do so... it did not. And so, was 'cursed'." <<

  You’re saying that plants have free will also. Okay. I’ll have to think about that for a while. It’s interesting – I’m not sure I agree, but it’s worth thinking about anyway.

  >>Oh, you’re not saying that man is to animal as man is to woman are you? Please tell me that’s not what you’re saying because I’ll have to hurl if you are.
  
  Now why would that make you 'hurl'. No, man is not 'to animal', as man is 'to woman'. Of COURSE not. The point I believe my Father was MAKING is that just as woman is supposedly 'in subjection' to man, man is not SUPERIOR to woman, and indeed must HONOR woman. In the same way, man is superior to ANIMALS... and so because they (animals) are a form of LIFE, they too are deserving of 'honor'. <<

  Thanks for clarifying that. I DID misunderstand your earlier paragraph. And yes, I am made physically ill when anyone puts forth the idea that ‘man’ was supposed to be superior to ‘woman’ and that ‘woman’ should be happy as a clam to be subjugated by ‘man.’ I’m glad that’s not what you were saying, and again I apologize for my misunderstanding.

  Peace to you as well,
  Silverleaf
• 

  Silverleaf

  Hi Chris, you wrote:

  >>FAITH gives you the oppurtunity to believe in more than just this world. Some people NEED faith.
  Chris
  I'm proud of this one, sorry!! <<

  This IS a good one and it bears repeating. I agree that some people need faith and faith is not a bad thing at all. Unfortunately there are those who just can’t find faith no matter how hard they look and I hate to hear those people told – ‘you’re just not looking in the right place, you’re not trying hard enough, you’re missing the point – blah, blah, blah.’ I don’t think it’s fair to do that to someone, especially when they are hurting because they lost faith. I think the truth is that some people need faith, some people don’t, some people can find it or create it easily and others cannot, but faith is not something that can be taught, nor can it be forced on someone, and those who don’t have it should not be made to feel somehow inferior because of it.

  Silverleaf
• 

  Winston

  Shelby,

  That's some interesting stuff.
  So as you said Jesus died for the whole world, and that includes all life, plant, and animal.

  So my questions are will all the amoebas and all other one types of one celled animals get everlasting life if they excersize faith in Jesus?

  Also what will the quality of life be like for these one celled creatures? Will they be of a divine nature?

  Will they rule with Christ in heaven? Will they judge angels?
  And how do these one celled creature show godly love?

  I hope I didn't ask too many questions, but your response to Dwilt made me think of these.

  Former elder turned apostate (by WT definition)[:)}and proud of it!
• 

  AGuest

  Dearest Silverleaf and Winston... may you both have peace!

  Silverleaf... you state:

  To say that an individual [whether a human or an animal] asks for help from the Lord and receives it because they had faith and asked sincerely, is fine, but to say that an individual who asks for help or guidance and does not receive it, does not because they were not sincere, or did not have enough faith or the right faith or did not ask the right way, falls short as an explanation.

  May I ask you in what way such 'falls short'? Honey, if I've given you instructions on how to approach me... and HEAR me... and YOU fail or refuse to follow them... can you blame ME? Really? You indeed asked, but you didn't do it in the 'Way' I told you that you NEEDED to, or THROUGH the one I told you to go through... in order for ME to hear it... and respond. Or... you did do it that 'Way'... and I responded... but you didn't LISTEN... in the 'Way'... I told you you NEEDED to. You are determined to do it YOUR way... and then fault ME when you don't get what you want.

  Let me give you an example: you have been taught that God does not even SPEAK to earthling man, yes? You have ALSO been taught not to give heed to your dreams, yes? But what does GOD perhaps say about that? Tell you what, let me say to you, what the young man Elihu is reported to have said at Job 34:14-17:

  "Look! In THIS... YOU... have not been in the right,
  I answer you. For God is MUCH more than mortal man.
  Why IS it against HIM... that you contended? Because
  all your words He does not answer?

  "For God speaks once... AND TWICE... though one does
  not regard it... IN A DREAM, a VISION OF THE NIGHT,
  when deep sleep falls upon men, during slumbers
  upon the bed...

  "IT IS THEN THAT HE UNCOVERS THE EAR OF MEN...
  and on EXHORTATION to them He puts His seal,
  to turn ASIDE from his deed and that He may
  cover PRIDE itself from an able-bodied man."

  Wait! Uh-oh... THIS says that God's talks to folks during their dreams. Say WHAT!? But the Watchtower, who supposedly consider the Bible as the "ultimate authority" has told you NOT to pay attention to your dreams.

  Do you understand my point, Silver? STOP listening to 'earthling man'... and LISTEN TO GOD. But you have to listen to HIM... by listening... to the One He APPOINTED... to SPEAK! And... you would most certainly have to BELIEVE that He even SPEAKS... yes? And then, when you DID hear something... you would have to EXERCISE faith that it was FROM God... through Christ... and obey. Yes?

  Okay, so you 'hear' a 'voice' that says, go out and murder your entire family. Or you have a dream that depicts that. Dear one, if you KNEW God... you would KNOW... that such did not COME from Him. Why? Because my Father no longer DEALS with fleshly Israel... but with SPIRITUAL Israel... and the MEDIATOR of spiritual Israel... 'is for peace'. You would KNOW that... and so you would KNOW the 'origin' of the inspired expression... that it did NOT 'originate... with God'.

  Why is faith so DIFFICULT a concept for some of you? I am sorry, please forgive me... but I just don't GET it. I am sorry; I just don't. Truly, if you WANTED to have faith, dear ones... you WOULD have faith. Instead, it seems that at EVERY turn, you are trying to find reasons why should NOT have faith. And you cry, "God ain't talkin' to me!" My Lord was speaking truth when he said you are like the little children in the market place who cried out, "We played the flute... but you did not dance; we wailed... but you did not beat yourselves in grief."

  My Father PROVED Himself... people. Time... and time... and time again. Whole NATIONS who did not believe He existed and possessed power... were taken out. Do you REALLY want such a demonstration? Do you REALLY need to have your physical flesh 'pleasured' in order to believe the Holy One of Israel Exists? I caution you: be CAREFUL... what you ask for. Pharaoh himself, who said, "Who is JAH; I do not KNOW JAH"... indeed came to 'know JAH'.

  Winston, dear one... SIGH!... you ask:

  will all the amoebas and all other one types of one celled animals get everlasting life if they excersize faith in Jesus? Also what will the quality of life be like for these one celled creatures? Will they be of a divine nature?

  First, you are assuming the survival of this species, as well as their purpose for existence. IF everything is eventually transformed from physical flesh... to SPIRIT... it would be 'logical' that even amoebas would take on a 'spirit' form. Yes? If amoebas are a physical life form, and all physical life forms pretty much die, and 'death' is to be 'brought to nothing'... and if that which is physical will 'put on' that which is spiritual, and that which is 'corrupt' will put on that which is 'incorrupt'... wouldn't LOGIC dictate that even the one-celled amoeba must be changed in its 'form'? What would be the PROBLEM with that, dear one?

  Will they rule with Christ in heaven?

  Will lions and cobras 'rule with Christ' and judge angels? Indeed, will all MEN rule with Christ and judge angels?

  And how do these one celled creature show godly love?

  In all HONESTY and TRUTHFULNESS? By being quite content with what they ARE... and how and where my Father has PLACED them... in their 'proper place'... and NOT being like angels... and 'earthling man'... and trying to FORSAKE their PROPER positions and dwelling place(s).

  Certain angels weren't 'content'... and in the same manner, certain men aren't either. The construction of the 'Tower' of Babel still goes on today. Is that to say that man should not pursue progress? By no means... God has granted to man many abilities and man HONORS God in the way he uses such abilities. Man, however, like angels... aren't content to just BE man... indeed, they are not even content to be GOD. They wish... like the angels... to be 'higher'... even than God. I ask you, should a dog aspire to be a man?

  I'm tired now. You want to take issue with the Holy One of Israel? I say, 'go for it'. I still wish you peace, however, and I am still,

  Your servant and a slave of Christ

  SJ (shaking salt on the popcorn and hunkerin' down for the 'show'... and begging y'all's pardon again... for my 'zeal'...)
• 

  conflicted

  Shelby, Good morning, and peace to you on this fine day.
  You said:
  

  Certain angels weren't 'content'... and in the same manner, certain men aren't either. The construction of the 'Tower' of Babel still goes on today. Is that to say that man should not pursue progress? By no means... God has granted to man many abilities and man HONORS God in the way he uses such abilities. Man, however, like angels... aren't content to just BE man... indeed, they are not even content to be GOD. They wish... like the angels... to be 'higher'... even than God. I ask you, should a dog aspire to be a man?

  I, for one AM content to be man - as I posted before, I am happier now than I have ever been. Unfortunately though, my lack of faith in the christian god has left many to believe I am lacking in some way.

  I am content to lead my life in peace and allow others to do so as well.

  I am content in that I don't need organized religion to make me complete, but there are those who want or need that in their lives.

  I have come to a conclusion in this matter, a breakthrough if you will: Faith is the belief and heartfelt knowledge that my hopes will come to pass without physical proof that this will occur.

  I do have faith, that I can lead a good life without religion. If God exists, and if He is a just and understanding being He knows why I choose not to worship. If I am to be punished for that it is betrween me and God, just as "faith" is for the faithful - between them and God.
• 

  Winston

  Shelby,

  Thanks for your honest answer to my questions.

  I'm sorry you had to answer them so late at nite, at least if you are living on the east coast it was late.

  About this voice that you feel is God talking to you, please don't misunderstand me but maybe it could just be your own mind playing tricks on you.
  It happens to all of us sometimes.
  Please don't feel that I respect you less if I say this, I don't. We can all at times get to feeling we must be somebody special,and that maybe God will use us in some special way.

  Maybe we have been through some hard times and we just need a little rest, maybe some counseling, or a little medication to give our minds and hearts time and space to heal.

  Shelby please go see a professional and get some help do it for your family for those that really love you.

  I say this with concern and don't mean any harm, I'm sorry if I may have at anytime been less than that.

  Former elder turned apostate (by WT definition)[:)}and proud of it!
• 

  Silverleaf

  Hello Shelby,

  I stated:
  quote:
  
  To say that an individual [whether a human or an animal] asks for help from the Lord and receives it because they had faith and asked sincerely, is fine, but to say that an individual who asks for help or guidance and does not receive it, does not because they were not sincere, or did not have enough faith or the right faith or did not ask the right way, falls short as an explanation.

  And you wrote:
  >>May I ask you in what way such 'falls short'? Honey, if I've given you instructions on how to approach me... and HEAR me... and YOU fail or refuse to follow them... can you blame ME? Really? You indeed asked, but you didn't do it in the 'Way' I told you that you NEEDED to, or THROUGH the one I told you to go through... in order for ME to hear it... and respond. Or... you did do it that 'Way'... and I responded... but you didn't LISTEN... in the 'Way'... I told you you NEEDED to. You are determined to do it YOUR way... and then fault ME when you don't get what you want. <<

  Exactly my point. This is a circular argument. It’s easy to say that people who prayed and did not get an answer did not do it right. It’s safe and it always applies. No matter HOW much someone needs, if they don’t get help, it HAS TO BE because THEY failed somehow, not because they’re asking of someone who either, a) does not exist, or b) does not care. I offer this example: When a child asks for a cookie and says, “Gimme a cookie!” it’s perfectly acceptable for a parent to say, “Not until you ask properly.” When a child is ill and needs medication and says, “Make me better!” for a parent to say, “Not until you ask properly,” is unreasonable and cruel.

  >>Let me give you an example: you have been taught that God does not even SPEAK to earthling man, yes?<<

  Actually, me personally, no. I have not been taught that per se. I feel it is a common belief however.

  >>You have ALSO been taught not to give heed to your dreams, yes? <<

  Again, not me personally. I do heed my dreams when I believe they have an important message.

  >>Wait! Uh-oh... THIS says that God's talks to folks during their dreams. Say WHAT!? But the Watchtower, who supposedly consider the Bible as the "ultimate authority" has told you NOT to pay attention to your dreams. <<

  Actually the Watchtower tells me nothing. I’m not a JW and never have been. I’m here because I long considered myself a victim of the WTS mentality and when I found this board I hoped that I might have something to offer in helping those who have left, if nothing more than my support for their efforts to break free of the cult.

  >>Do you understand my point, Silver? STOP listening to 'earthling man'... and LISTEN TO GOD. But you have to listen to HIM... by listening... to the One He APPOINTED... to SPEAK! And... you would most certainly have to BELIEVE that He even SPEAKS... yes? And then, when you DID hear something... you would have to EXERCISE faith that it was FROM God... through Christ... and obey. Yes?<<

  And to this end, yes. I never said I did not believe in God/dess, while at one time I did not, I do now and I do believe that She has listened when I asked for help and She has answered me. I’m speaking for those who say they have never heard God and don’t think they ever will and don’t have faith and I’m merely saying, if that is how they feel, no amount of testimony of what has happened to others will change their mind and telling them they don’t hear God because they did something wrong is neither fair nor, in my opinion, particularly true. I respect that you don’t agree with that.

  You wrote:

  >>Why is faith so DIFFICULT a concept for some of you? I am sorry, please forgive me... but I just don't GET it. I am sorry; I just don't. Truly, if you WANTED to have faith, dear ones... you WOULD have faith. Instead, it seems that at EVERY turn, you are trying to find reasons why should NOT have faith. And you cry, "God ain't talkin' to me!" My Lord was speaking truth when he said you are like the little children in the market place who cried out, "We played the flute... but you did not dance; we wailed... but you did not beat yourselves in grief."<<

  This is what I mean. Faith is obviously easy for you. You have it. Maybe you did not always have it, but something happened to you to prove your faith. But that has not happened to everyone, for some it will happen and for others it will never happen, but while your efforts are sincere, I fear they are in vain because telling someone they don’t have faith because they don’t want faith does not in any way help them to get it.

  Shelby, I really don’t mean to be argumentative, I’m enjoying the debate, I hope you are enjoying it as well.

  Silverleaf