Debunking Dawkins

by Shining One 49 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • DanTheMan
    DanTheMan

    This paragraph caught my attention:

    Thomas' answer is more revealing of his attitude than his evidential requirements. He says to his 10 closest friends, whose word he doubts, "Unless I see the nail marks in the hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it" (Jn 20:25). Notice how strident Thomas' evidential ultimatum is. One thing that should be clear is that one's expectation for verification must match the entity under question. What if I stated, "I will not believe in the existence of Saltine Crackers until I eat one and it makes a sweet taste in my mouth"? This would be absurd. I would be requiring verification that is not and could not be accessible to me -- verification inappropriate to the entity under question. Suppose Jesus had come back with a non-scarred side and non-scarred hands. Suppose he appeared to the ten and then decided to re-enter heaven. Thomas' requirement for verification would be unreasonable. As it turns out, Thomas may not have even fulfilled his stated evidential standards before he believed. When confronted with Jesus personally, Thomas can do nothing but declare "My Lord and my God!" (v 28). Jesus' response is perhaps where Dawkins and the rest of the atheistic or so-called "freethought" community have received their impetus to use Thomas as the poster-child for Enlightenment rationalism and Baconian empiricism. He says to Thomas, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed" (29). In context, this quote is easily understood to be speaking of a different kind of belief required in the post-apostolic era. In the Gospels are recorded many miraculous acts of Jesus. Many who witnessed these events with their very eyes did not even believe! Some did, however. Now that Jesus is returning to heaven, there will be no chance to believe based upon sight. One must believe based upon the testimony of the apostles. Thomas' brand of faith is inappropriate for the apostolic era and beyond. Analogously, I must believe in the assasination of Abraham Lincoln based upon the testimony of witnesses. I cannot demand to see the event personally in order to believe it. Such a requirement is inappropriate for this time in history. Thomas, likewise, is held up to be an example of one whose brand of faith was too crude for the coming era. The question is not faith versus evidence, but what kind of evidence! If believing the testimony of witnesses is a kind of faith that scientists are not to embrace, then why are there scientific journals? (Dawkins here may well respond that scientists often include their data in journal articles, and thus their experiments can be checked. But who is to say that the scientists are honest in the reporting of their findings?)

    If somebody tells me that there is a product at the supermarket that is somewhat similar to bread in its makeup but is flat and crispy and more salty, that's not an outrageous claim. So of course it would be absurd for me to insist to the person that I absolutely will not believe it until I see and taste one for myself. Likewise, the historian's claim that Abraham Lincoln was shot to death is not an outrageous one. I've seen similar things happen to political figures in my own lifetime. OTOH, my "evidential requirements" for believing that somebody was raised from the dead would be considerably higher. I wouldn't believe it on testimony even if it was my most trusted friend telling me. Why should it have been any different for Thomas? And what does this have to do with the subject at hand anyway?

    Am I missing the point?

    Jesus' response is perhaps where Dawkins and the rest of the atheistic or so-called "freethought" community have received their impetus to use Thomas as the poster-child for Enlightenment rationalism and Baconian empiricism. He says to Thomas, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed" (29). In context, this quote is easily understood to be speaking of a different kind of belief required in the post-apostolic era. In the Gospels are recorded many miraculous acts of Jesus. Many who witnessed these events with their very eyes did not even believe! Some did, however. Now that Jesus is returning to heaven, there will be no chance to believe based upon sight. One must believe based upon the testimony of the apostles. Thomas' brand of faith is inappropriate for the apostolic era and beyond. Thomas, likewise, is held up to be an example of one whose brand of faith was too crude for the coming era. The question is not faith versus evidence, but what kind of evidence! If believing the testimony of witnesses is a kind of faith that scientists are not to embrace, then why are there scientific journals? (Dawkins here may well respond that scientists often include their data in journal articles, and thus their experiments can be checked. But who is to say that the scientists are honest in the reporting of their findings?)
    :so-called "freethought"

    Alert: WTS style ad hom.

    The analogy of a Christian's faith in the resurrection based on testimony and Dawkins reliance on what is published in scientific journals is excrutiatingly bad. The data published in scientific journal is observational data taken from experiments or other methods of scientific inquiry that -- key point -- can be reproduced or verified independently.

  • Shining One
    Shining One

    >The analogy of a Christian's faith in the resurrection based on testimony and Dawkins reliance on what is published in scientific journals is excrutiatingly bad. The data published in scientific journal is observational data taken from experiments or other methods of scientific inquiry that -- key point -- can be reproduced or verified independently.

    No actually, amazingly, scientific exeperiments that make wild claims are prolific when it comes to proving anything regarding the philosophy of nauralism and it's main teaching, (macro) evolution. The orignal 'prehisoric atmosphere' production of making life, alkalines, has been shown to be falicious. Then the fabled 'fruit fly' example of evolution was exposed as false, they couldn't even life outside of laboratory conditions and their mutations were useless. Those are just two examples and there are many more out there. You have the manufactured skull of Piktdown Mand and the swine's tooth that became the basis for an evolution theorem in the famous 'monkey trial'. Data is falsified and made to fit the axioms believed by their promoters, kind of like the WBTS does with scripture.
    Rex

  • DanTheMan
    DanTheMan

    What I said was that claims made in scientific journals are independently verifiable, and thus frauds such as the ones you mention can be exposed, unlike the claim that Jesus was resurrected from the dead, and therefore the analogy made in the article was painfully fallacious.

    So really you only reinforced my point.

  • Shining One
    Shining One

    EYEWITNESS CLAIMS, DAN.
    How are you going to falsify this type of evidence? You can't test it because it happened 2000 years ago. That does not make the evidence any LESS VALID. You use that as a 'dodge' to avoid pertinent evidence so that you can 'stack the deck'. Wacko naturalists have their unprovable assumptions and teach that as theory that needs to be accepted as fact, for all intents and purposes. This is just evidence used to convict persons of crimes before we had much in the way of scientific testing. Independent testimony and preponderance of the evidence. You argue insincerly from a historical standpoint, as well. There is much more evidence, Biblical and secular, to make the case for the resurrection than there is for any event in history yet we all believe that Alexander and Caesar Augustus did what was credited to them!
    Just by saying, 'its not falsifiable', doesn't mean it didn't happen!
    Rex

  • Midget-Sasquatch
    Midget-Sasquatch
    EYEWITNESS CLAIMS, DAN.

    How are you going to falsify this type of evidence? You can't test it because it happened 2000 years ago. That does not make the evidence any LESS VALID.

    Believe me Rex when I say that I'd really like for the Resurrection to have happened. But we have incompatible accounts, with different gospels mentioning different witnesses as the first to see the risen Christ, which unfortunately marrs their accuracy and the stock one can take in them.

  • DanTheMan
    DanTheMan

    Again you've only reinforced my point. Yes, unlike the findings published in scientific journals, the Christian's claim that a man who lived in Palestine 2000 years was literally resurrected from the dead isn't a falsifiable claim.

    You're catching on!

    So, are you seeing now how hideously fallacious the article is in it's analogy of the scientist's reliance on published articles versus the Christian's reliance on the historical testimony of Christ's resurrection?

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    Rexy

    How are you going to falsify this type of evidence? You can't test it because it happened 2000 years ago. That does not make the evidence any LESS VALID.

    Oh Rex, if you knew what a big fat hypocrite you make yourself out to be... you can't even argue consistantly, let alone respond decently to faults in your arguments. I can explain EXACTLY how big a hypocrite this quote makes you, but it's more fun not to. Everyone with a shred of sense (i.e. most people) can see it. I'm not entirely sure if you will, which just makes it funnier...

    No doubt in coming weeks and months you will carry on not responding to the faults in your claims, but keep on repeating those claims. You making a parrot-dy of yourself, LOL. Does Rexy want a cracker?.... NO! Rexy IS crackers!!

  • Shining One
    Shining One

    Dan,

    >So, are you seeing now how hideously fallacious the article is in it's analogy of the scientist's reliance on published articles versus the Christian's reliance on the historical testimony of Christ's resurrection?


    No, not at all. A published article is an opinion of the conclusions reached by some experiment or evaluation of evidence gathered. Historical testimony can be every bit as valid as any experiment ever performed. When you deny this you deny all of history as evidencial of what happened in the past. What I see is selective use of the evidence according to the presuppositions of the person.

    Rex
    >The analogy of a Christian's faith in the resurrection based on testimony and Dawkins reliance on what is published in scientific journals is excrutiatingly bad. The data published in scientific journal is observational data taken from experiments or other methods of scientific inquiry that -- key point -- can be reproduced or verified independently.
    IP: 0GnoSqivXDqiA/V4
    1) The gospel accounts ARE verified independently by the many sources within the text, the apocryphal writings, historians and other uninspired sources.
    2) This is the messiah which we remember and made such an impact on history and the Roman Empire.
    3) This one fulfilled the number of prophecies that are practically mathematically impossible.
    4) His apostles also used miraculous powers that are independently verified.
    5) Those very miracles have happened in abundance over the centuries and even into today.
    The only important thing remaining is for you (and anyone else) to open your mind and actually ask the Lord to show you in some unmistakable way. I suspect that as long as you remain under skeptical influence or have not forgiven those who have misled you in the past you will not be successfull. If you HONESTLY SEEK HIM, you will find out He does indeed live and He is the rock my foundation of belief is built on. Scripture only pointed me to Him. I did not reason out my salvation, as St. Augustine said. "Seek not to understand that you may believe but believe that you may understand".
    REx

  • DanTheMan
    DanTheMan

    In one post you said:

    How are you going to falsify this type of evidence? You can't test it because it happened 2000 years ago.

    And you were correct, and this is my point exactly. The Christian's belief in the resurrection is untestable, unverifiable. It's faith! What does the word faith mean to you?

    In the next post, you seemed to contradict the above quoted statement by insisting that the gospel accounts are independently verifiable, which I would take to mean that they are falsifiable.

    So which is it?

  • Shining One
    Shining One

    Nothing is ever accomplished here. This board is a never ending discussion of meaningless semantics and critical hypothesis.
    Rex

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