Elders coming over next week to discuss my questions

by Goldminer 28 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Marvin Shilmer

  Hello, Goldminer

  You write:

  "My plan is to start with the first question and stick to it until it is answered to my satisfaction which I doubt it can be.It is the following:

  "Where does the bible say that God has an "organization" on earth and uses a Governing Body to direct it?
  I have some research ready to use but I'd like to ask you if you have any comments or information you'd like to share that I can use in some way."

  I suggest you begin with a different question. Why? Because whether the Bible says God has a contemporary organization is arguable, and experience teaches that trying to argue your interpretation true over their interpretation of this question will likely result in nothing more than ill will and potential congregational expulsion rather than convincing them you are correct in your view.

  My suggestion is that you ask a question that is inarguable. I would focus on honesty and truthfulness. I would ask the following:

  Can I use from something and honestly claim to have abstained from that same something? (In both cases emphasize the word "from")

  The answer to that question is inarguably, no. The next question I would ask is:

  Do Jehovah's Witnesses use from blood? (Again, emphasize the word "from")

  If these elders are unsure about your question or try to get around it then I suggest you present your question in the form of an illustration. Ask this:

  If Elder One tells you to abstain from his car because his car is his property and then while he is away on vacation you and Elder Two take his car apart and decide to take the hub caps and chrome for yourselves, and then later take the engine apart and each takes what he wants from these parts, and then later takes other parts etc… would it be honest for you and Elder Two to claim you had faithfully abstained from his car?

  Reassure the two elders that you are only interested in honesty.

  Marvin Shilmer
• 

  Golf
• 

  AK - Jeff

  Goldminer -

  Be careful here, ok?

  If u want to stay in the organization, even if only in name, this is very thin ice. Most likely they will come prepared to administer the 'Loyalty Test'. If they are being schooled by the CO, and that is often the case in suspected 'apostates', they will be instructed to ignore most of what you say and just determine if u agree with Wt teaching. If the answer is no, they will simply Da or Df you with little ado.

  I am sure you know this, but just a reminder.

  I would avoid them at all cost if you want to remain 'faded' and safe from attack. They could still do it, but it is harder to do if u avoid face to face confrontation.

  Good luck to you

  Jeff
• 

  2112

  A good point to mention is King David and King Saul.

  Saul was Gods anointed King; therefore he was the arraignment (or organization). David was also anointed but only to be King not as King. I know that Saul was also trying to kill David at times however he was still (by WT reasoning) to be loyal to, follow and obey Saul. Did he? No. So he must have been an apostate, as he publicly said that Saul was wrong. Meaning that the organization was wrong (again by WT reasoning). Next David was not alone; did not a few hundred men go with and follow David? So they to went against Gods anointed -the organization. Now when Saul, Gods anointed, died what happened to these men who were disobedient to the organization? Well David was blessed and was made King-after all he was anointed to be King despite going against the organization. What about those who followed David, they were not anointed so they could not claim that as an excuse. Nor was Saul trying to kill them. So what was their reward? They to were blessed by God. Not a bad deal for opposing the organization.

  One final point is this David held even after Saul was killed that Saul was Gods anointed and that is why David had the person who claimed to kill Saul put to death. "Your blood is on your own head, for your own mouth has testified against you, saying “I have killed the Lord's anointed"

  In the Bible God always uses individuals not an organization.

  I hope this helps.
• 

  Goldminer

  Thanks for your comments and replies so far;some very interesting material in there.

  I am expecting them to use some WT material to overwhelm me but I want to keep things simple,which is why my question starts with "where does the bible say...".Also I've tied in the part about a governing body directing this organization which requires biblical proof that a governing body exists.I plan on using Jesus' own words to show where he directed his followers to go.

  "Come to me..."-MT 11:28

  "whom shall we go away to?You have sayings of everlasting life"-JN 6:68

  "I am the way and the truth and the life..."-JN 14:6

  I have to keep the burden of proof on them and always ask for scriptures.A discussion tying in the governing body would most likely lead to a discussion on the FDS (MT 24:45-47) which is a very weak proof that that scripture is a literal prophecy pointing to a religious group in the 1870's.

  It was tough enough last time with one elder who was in WT denial and would not reason on real facts,I don't expect it to be any easier this time.If it was up to me I would never have these discussions with elders but my wife really believes they can answer my questions so I have to give it a shot and do the best I can.Like I said,it's quite unlikely they'll want to df because of the emotional damage that would do to my wife although I'd like them to bring it up instead of leading me down a garden path with their WT reasoning.

  Goldminer
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  Jourles

  After Common Era???

  After Christ's Enthronement?
• 

  Ingenuous

  I found Tom Cabeen's articles helped solidify things for me, particularly "Does God Work Through an Organization?" and "Where is the Body of Christ?"

  Along the lines of using older publications, there are a couple places to go to find Russell's own words on the topic of organization:

  Zion's Watch Tower, September 1 & 15, 1893, under the heading "Come Out of Her, My People!" Note the details of the disassociation letter Russell provides.

  Russell's third volume in the "Studies in the Scriptures" series, Thy Kingdom Come. Under the chapter entitled "The Work of Harvest", see pages C183-C187.
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  2112

  That apporach is good. Ask them which is the final athority the Bible or the WT.

  When they say the Bible, interupt them at that point and say good let's just use the Bible. They will try and bring in the WT during the dicsussion don't let them. If they say that you need the WT to understand the Bible then just ask if Gods word is complete or not.

  Then again you may want to just 'Smile and wave" to avoid any confrontations, as Jeff said "Be Careful".

  They aren't on a social call they are far to busy doing the Lords work to be bothered by all that touchy feely stuff, they are on a mission. Their mission sadly, is probably to beat you into sumission and don't think for a moment that they care if it would be hard on your wife if you are expeled. She will be used as proof that you are evil if she leaves or held up as an example of how to handle a evil mate. Either way, to them she is collateral damage.
• 

  AlmostAtheist

  Gold,

  You've probably already considered this, but I throw it out anyway. When I was going to discuss an issue with an elder, he turned it into a judicial committee. At first he agreed to meet with me on a certain Saturday, just he and I. Then a few days later he called me with another elder conferenced in, to verify our "meeting time". I pointed out that it was just supposed to be he and I, but he mentioned that um, well, it has become more of a judicial matter so there will be three brothers in attendance.

  So he never had any intention of talking to me about my issues. He only wanted to see if he and the others could jar me from them, and if not, to DF me for apostasy.

  I'm not sure how heavily I'd lean on the "they won't DF me for the sake of my wife" theory. Decide if you care or not, then make your decision based on that. If you're not wanting to be DF'd, tread lightly. Or don't tread at all. But if you don't care either way, then by all means go for it!

  What organization was Job associated with? Noah? Moses? Enoch?

  What about the dude that the disciples said was healing people in Jesus' name, and Jesus said to leave him alone, he's not against us so he's for us?

  Dave
• 

  garybuss

  One of my questions to myself was related to the Christian aspect of Jehovah's Witnesses. The Jehovah's Witnesses told me that Jehovah's Witnesses are Christian. They also told me the first Jehovah's witness was Abel and there has always been Jehovah's witnesses even before Jesus.
  My question to myself was: If the pre-Jesus Jehovah's witnesses were Christian, how were they Christian? If they were not Christian before Jesus, what were they? If Jehovah's witnesses before Jesus were not Christian, how did their becoming Christian change them?
  Begging questions were: What was the purpose and what was the message of the pre-Christian Jehovah's Witnesses? How did Christian Jehovah's Witnesses lose control of the sacred scriptures to the Roman Catholics? Why are the early manuscripts in the Vatican and not at Bethel?