Ezekiel's Mystery "Chieftain"/Leader ...

by MDS 14 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • logical
    logical

    MDS & follower,

    I know this is totally pointless cos you wont bother responding to me, but explain the following...

    Matthew 17:10-11 you claim you fulfill. However, what about what comes immediately after those 2 verses, namely the following:

    "However I say to YOU that Elijah has already come and they did not recognise him but did with him the things they wanted. In this way the Son of man is destined to suffer at their hands. Then the disciples percieved that he spoke to them about John the Baptist"

    Why do you base your research upon material that you yourself have condemned as demonised? Im talking about the Watchtower literature.

    There is no question, I have to be the only human being walking this planet that made such outlandish "observations" & "predictions" suggested by the peculiar posturings of the September 8, 1991 Awake! magazine.

    Yeah you call yourself a prophet. You made the statement after the WTS got involved with the UN. You could have knew about it.

    The JW's in JULY... get that month... JULY TOOK UPON THEMSELVES, not Jah giving them, but they PRESUMPTUOUSLY TOOK UPON THEMSELVES the title of "Jehovah's Witnesses". As another poster said before, if indeed Jah was backing the JW's then CEASERS LAW WOULD NOT AFFECT HIS ARRANGEMENT. You are basing your dates upon CAESERS LAW. The 70th anniversary passed a few months ago... in the summer. Not october.

    Why, tell me, should we turn to another man BESIDES Christ? After Christ warned us NOT to?

    The JW's dont even know Christ. They do not partake of his memorial as commanded in the gospel of John. So, if the JW's are not even under the covenant, how can they transgress it to the point of worthlessness? The JW's are simply sheep scattered and thrown about. Except the self-proclaimed "annointed" class, including the Governing Body - "Babylon the Great", modern day pharisees.

    John 14:15-17, 16:12-14 refer to the Holy Spirit, right? If not, then explain EXACTLY how you fulfill it.

    MDS, upon "testing the inspired expression" as we are advised to do, I have found your "inspired expression" to be false. However, I would appreciate you to answer my points.

  • MDS
    MDS

    To: "Logical"

    70 YEARS OF "DECLARING" THE SACRED NAME COMPLETED -- OCTOBER 1931-2001

    After the resolution was adopted to be called & named "Jehovah's Witnesses" as a spiritual nation in July of 1931, it took some time for all of JWs worldwide to get the same information, and resolutely "adopt" it as written, since they were scattered in many different parts of the earth.

    Here is a quote from a publication printed by the WTS that tells exactly how the "historic" adoption was carried out to an earthwide family of JWs scattered thru-out the earth.

    "Needless to say, this resolution was joyously acclaimed by all present [original convention w/Rutherford], and, in the WEEKS THAT FOLLOWED, AT FIFTY EXTENSION CONVENTIONS IN ALL PARTS OF THE EARTH Jehovah's people met to add their joyful voices in the embracing of this remarkable NEW NAME." -- See "Jehovah's Witnesses In The Divine Purpose" page 126, par. #1.

    So reasonably, it took some time for all of this to be accomplished thru-out the earth, on a global scale.

    In accepting the above "resolution", we must remember it is the singular act of "declaring God Name" to others that brings on the real responsibility before God Almighty. After adopting this new name and designation for themselves, JWs must now continually be found "Living Up to the Name," as one of the older "Kingdom Songs" sung by all JWs worldwide says.

    Jehovah's Witness began doing this, "boasting in the Name" of God, and "declaring the Name" of God, by way of the publication called, "The Kingdom The Hope of the World," which was released in October 1931. Also, in this publication, contained the original "resolution" about the New Name Jehovah's Witnesses had adopted worldwide. They had now began, to "preach the Name" of God to others. -- Psalms 105:1-3; 2 Tim. 2:19

    Here is what the WTS had to say about the actual beginning of their exercising this rare privilege of "Declaring the Name" of God as a united spiritual nation of people, using this new release called "The Kingdom The Hope of the World" thru out the earth. -- Genesis 12:8; Exodus 33:19; 34:5

    "In order that the leaders of the world might be duly notified of this proper designation for Jehovah's people this resolution and the text of Brother Rutherford's convention address were published in the booklet "The Kingdom The Hope of the World." Included was another resolution adopted at the convention, again indicting Christendom for her apostasy and for treating Jehovah's counsel with contempt, and proclaiming: "The hope of the world is God's kingdom, and there is no other hope." During October of that year a campaign was conducted by the congregations to visit every clergyman, politician and big businessman in their territories with this booklet. In just the United States and Canada 132,066 booklets were put out in this way. Within the next few months this booklet reached the homes of FIVE MILLION others in all parts of the earth." -- See "Jehovah's Witnesses In The Divine Purpose," page 126 par. #2.

    Jehovah's Witnesses began their historic "Preaching" and "Declaring" of God's Sacred Name in October 1931...Exactly 70 Years ago...70 Years of Discipline & Training...70 Years of holding a "sacred trust", being "called by God's Name" and possessing the "framework of the knowledge of the truth." The sacred trust that serves to "sanctify" them, as a consecrated nation to do God's Will. -- See Numbers 6:27; Romans 2:20; John 17:17.

    Jehovah's Witnesses, in October 1931, became...the spiritual nation of "Israel" of Bible Prophecy. A people who would have to endure severe discipline for open rebellion & disobedience to God...being chased off their land, their spiritual "inheritance." A people who would have to be changed spiritually, from a "land of Decoration" which falls off into "apostasy," to finally, a "Mountain of Decoration," a spiritually elavated plateau. A people who, after severe discipline from God, would be granted the privilege of "dwelling in the center [navel] of the earth." -- Daniel 8:13; 11:32, 41, 45; Isaiah 30:26; Jeremiah 23:19, 20; Micah 4:6,7; Ezekiel 37:23; 38:8-12

    MDS

  • Larsguy
    Larsguy

    MDS:Your answer about the Chieftan being a "sinner" is possibly answered for you quite simply by Zechariah 3.

    Please note that Zechariah 3 uses high-priest Joshua to typify Jesus Christ. Note the following though:
    1. This priest is becoming a king like Melchidek.
    2. This is the time of his anointing as king.
    3. He has befouled garments representing his many past sins.

    Thus the suggestion that you have made that would indicate this chieftan is a sinner can easily be explained if this reference is specifically for the SECOND COMING?

    Why? Because the second coming in the flesh by the Messiah is as a sinner. When he arrives at the second coming he posseses the body of a sinner, specifically referenced in prophetic parables by Jesus as the "prodigal son" and "Lazarus".

    Please also note that when the prodigal son returns to his Father's house, obviously representing the Father, he is given new robes just as high-priest Joshua was given "robes of state" to change into out of his filthy robes. But there's more. The Biblical specifically says this robe is "the best one", suggesting if the Father is a king, then these are the robes of state, the robes of the first-born heir bestowed upon him ahead of his older brother.

    Also, please note that a "bull" is slaughtered as a sin offering for this chieftan, and a "fattened bull" is what is sacrificed and served at the private banquet of the prodigal son given by the father, who typifies Jesus Christ, but at the second coming. Also note, in harmony with that, this same banquet given by a Father only as a wedding feast of the Messiah, again, you find the fattened bull being sacrificed. Thus it is all linked.

    Thus you have your ANSWER here if you see this as a specific reference to the SECOND COMING.

    Why?

    Because it would appear that the first coming is as a "lamb" to be sacrificed and is a sinless first-coming. The first coming is in the perfect flesh where Jesus had to be born as an infant, grow up and then be sacrificed. But that was just once for all time. In order to manifest and combine with the flesh again at the second time, it was not necessary for him to again come in the perfect flesh, therefore, he simply embodies the identity of one of his anointed ones, only this particular anointed one had once left the covenant and become dead, typified by his filthy garments and thus requiring a sin offering.

    Thus the "chieftan" since he is associated with sin, must be a reference to the Messiah at the Second Coming and not the first coming, since the two advents are distinctly different in that specific way. The first being as a perfect man, represented by unleavened bread, the second being in the sinful flesh of an ordinary man.

    This is CONFIRMED for us by the typology of the "wave offerings" which reflect the physical and fleshly nature of the Messiah at the first and second coming. The first wave offering, part of Passover, is WITHOUT LEAVEN, leaven, of course, representing sinfulness. In fact, the entire Passover event is focussed on the 'unleavened bread' representing Jesus' perfect sacrifice.

    But the second wave offering of Pentecost, is specifically WITH LEAVEN, loaves from the house!

    Leviticus 23:16 and 17 instructs: ""Count fifty days to the day after the seventh Sabbath; then you shall ofer a new grain offering to the Lord. 17 You shall bring from your dwellings tow wave loaves of two tenths of an ephah. They shall be of fine flour; THEY SHALL BE BAKED WITH LEAVEN. They are the firstfruits to the Lord."

    Obviously, if the unleavened bread represents Christ's sinlessness, then the bread with leaven must represent a sinful offering. If this represents Jesus Christ, then it would mean Jesus Christ is sinful. Only the critical difference is that this is the Pentecost wave offering, the SECOND wave offering, representing the SECOND COMING.

    Thus your dilemma with any Biblical reference suggesting Jesus is sinful, especially Zechariah 3 and your favorite Ezekiel reference, is resolved when you carefully separate the reference to the first or second coming. As indeed, the Bible does indicate and REQUIRE that Jesus reappear at the second coming in the sinful flesh. Ezekiel is not the only reference in scripture pointing to the gross sins of the person selected to embody the Messiah at the second coming.

    For your research, you should consider carefully the hidden meanings in the prophetic parables of Jesus which can be identified as Messianic, particularly so the one of the "Rich Man and Lazarus" where Lazarus is described as being in the "bosom position of the Father" which is the precise description of Jesus at John 1:18 being the "only-begotten god in the bosom position of the Father." That's a direct Messianic reference. Yet we find him spiritually sick and outcast in the beginning of the parable, yet in the bosom position of the Father at the conclusion.

    This is the same nature of the prodigal son who is dejected and "dead" at first, but then comes to life and supersedes his own faithful older brother. And this is the reference in Zechariah where it shows the king-priest Joshua with many sins having to be forgiven before given the kingdom. And of course, your Ezekiel reference to this "chieftan" making a bull sin offering would be consistent with a reference to the second coming of the Messiah in the sinful flesh.

    So....mystery solved!!!

    Thanks for this fascinating reference! Please comment ad infinitum on this topic as you already have, but you'll have to revise it in the light of this new light, obviously. Everything in the Bible works out perfectly.

    See part II regarding the woman giving birth to the Messiah at the second coming to add to this.

    L.G.

  • Larsguy
    Larsguy

    PART II- The woman gives birth to the Messiah at the Second Coming...proving Jesus takes up the body of an anointed Christian at the second coming.

    FUNDAMENTALLY: A fundamental of Jesus appearing in the imperfect flesh at the second coming, totally in harmony with your "chieftan" reference offering a sin offering, is that basically, Jesus has a first and second coming. The first was for the purpose of "sin", that is, as a sacrifice. But this was for "all time" and not necessary again, so when he appears in the flesh again, combining with some specific individual, he doesn't have to do so at the embyonic level. He can simply possess and inhabit the body and identity of some individual already born, one of his chosen anointed ones.

    Please keep in mind, as well, a critical factor in this regard with respect to his perfect body. He gave this perfect body and what it represented as a sacrifice for all of mankind's sins. Therefore, he would not have legitimate access to it again. It was no longer available to him. But in order to reappear in the flesh again to rule on the earth during the Millennium and Judgment Day, it would have been a simple matter to possess by spirit one of his chosen followers. The identity of that chosen one is what is referenced in scripture in various places whether the "chieftan" who has to make the bull sin offering in Ezekiel, or high-priest Joshua/Sprout who is seen appearing at the time of the anointing as king with befouled garments, etc.

    Having said that, though, the vision in Revelation of the woman giving birth to the Messiah can be better understood.

    Now just looking at what is happening here, we see Jesus and his angels just kicked Satan and his angels out of Heaven and down to the Earth. At this time, a woman, apparently on the Earth gives birth to a child, "a male, who would shepherd the nations with an iron rod", obviously, a reference to the Messiah.

    But this woman has to flee from the Dragon, Satan. Certainly, therefore, this woman is not in heaven, but on the earth. Who can she be? None other than those who would make up Christ's Bride.

    But how is it that the Messiah is just now being born from this woman, when he was just in Heaven as a mighty king dispelling Satan?

    The answer is that it is at this time, the time when Satan is removed from Heaven and cast down to the earth, that the Messiah himself must come down to the earth and manifest himself in human form. How does he do this though? Well, as noted, not having the need to be born as a child again so that he is a perfect man, he simply takes up the body and identity of a man who is already alive. Per the vision, though, this man is born from the woman, simply meaning that he takes up the body of one of his own anointed followers who was previously part of the Bride Class.

    Thus, at the time Satan is kicked out of Heaven, at the "end of the gentile times" as some say, one of his anointed followers are chosen to become the embodiment of the Messiah and this is typified by showing the woman, the Bride Class, giving birth to a child who is then taken up to heaven. The child being symbolically taken up to Heaven represents his being placed in a highly favored position with the Father, in fact, the "bosom position of the Father" which is the symbolic place for Jesus Christ.

    So you see, even Revelation truly gives us some details as to precisely who this person chosen to embody the Messiah comes from. Jesus' taking up the human flesh in the body of another individual is what this vision is about. This woman, representing the Bride Class, producing this child, simply means one of her members is chosen to become the Messiah.

    After the Messiah is chosen from her (born), then she runs into the "wilderness, to her place" which is simply an indication that this gathering of anointed ones is secretive and underground. Thus the Messiah is born out of this secret Christian organization who is present on the earth at the time of the second coming.

    Of course, again, more details specifically about this individual are found hidden in various scriptures, but obviously, this person is not perfect and a sinful man, and thus consistent with the second wave offering being WITH LEAVEN instead of unleavened bread, leaven being a specific Biblical representation for sin.

    So it's really all right there. How can a woman just now be giving birth to the Messiah when the Messiah is already alive up in heaven? The answer is this is a reference to his rebirth in human form, only this time via possession of one of his anointed followers in the imperfect flesh.

    Other scriptures are totally consistent with this, of course. One that comes to mind in particular is John 3:2 where John acknowledges that he would be in the same sort of flesh as Jesus is when he is revealed at the second coming:

    "Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, bu we know that when He is revealed, we shall be LIKE HIM, for we shall see Him as He is."

    This supports that Jesus will be no different than his own followers when he is revealed and they will behold him as he is. Of course, at the second coming he must again come into the form of human flesh, only this time, it will be as an ordinary man just like his own followers; he will be just LIKE them. This has a specific meaning when you understand that Jesus will appear at the second coming in the imperfect flesh as the "prodigal son", one who is chosen by God, but who, like Jonah, had left God's house and his faithfullness and become dead spiritually before awakening again via God's mercy.

    Thus when the Bible says "there is more joy over a sinner who repents than [the faithful ones]"...that is a secret reference that the chief one of joy in God's eyes, the one in the bosom position of the Father is, indeed, a repentant sinner.

    Also it becomes clear Jesus' hidden meaning when he said: "The fact that you did not do this to the LEAST ONE OF THESE MY BROTEHRS, you did not do it to me..." was a cryptic reference to the fact that when manifested back into the flesh at the second coming, he would actually take up the body of not one of the gloriously faithful anointed ones, but one of a repentant sinner who is regarded as a LEAST one among his brothers.

    Thus "what is low....is made high".

    And finally, Jehovah fulfils SPECIFICALLY his insistance that he chooses who will rule in the earth, "even the LOWLIEST OF MANKIND"...thus he chose one of the lowliest of mankind to become the embodiment of the Messiah at the second coming, though it could have been any one of his chosen anointed ones. He chose a repentant sinner for his own divine reasons to be the Messiah at the second coming.

    Quite fascinating, is it not?

    Of course, this was all HIDDEN until it was time for him to be revealed.

    L.G.

  • allen
    allen

    Are Jehovah"s Witnesses christians?This is a question that Salamander posted on the C channel Forum. Ijust thought I would ask., thanks allen?????

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