Last night in bed we talked a lot more about some stuff. She has been doing A LOT of research. She is not taking my information at face value. I think this is a good thing.
She was crying for awhile saying she feels torn between loyalty to Jehovah and loyalty to me. I said I totally understood how she feels and I know she will probably cycle through lots of different emotions over the next few months or longer.
She read a lot on the WT CD-ROM on the FDS claim of who they are and what they do. SHe said when you get right down to it, they can't claim conclusively what the FDS is or that THEY are the FDS. But she is appalled that they basically contradict some of those statements and in fact claim THEY ARE and that we are NOT TO QUESTION THE APPOINTED CHANNEL.
She again reiterated to me that it scares her that she cannot ask an elder about these questions. (I think this one point alone means more to her than many of the others. I did not expect this - but it is GOOD!)
We then spoke some more about the concept of an organization. She said she read the scriptures in Acts that talk about that meeting with Paul and the "older men" and how they met in public with the congregation. She said she thought it was really interesting that "the congregation AND the older men with Paul wrote the final letter to the congregations" on the matter. She admitted this is far different from the GB's secrecy of their meetings.
I told her I have been in the very room the GB meets in. I actually took my parents (mom and non-JW dad) into that room and how they made a big deal that we had to leave our cameras outside the room because no pictures were allowed.
I pointed out how this completely contrasted the account in Acts with the older men.
She still has a hard time understanding that a human organization is not needed.
The other night I suggested she go online and find some ex-Mormon experiences, and she would probably be surprised at the similarities.
So...last night she told me she did find some ex-Mormon stories. She spoke of one guy in particular - a fourth generation Mormon - who is now atheist. She said there were also some emails the guy posted - of faithful Mormon's bashing him and calling him an apostate and stuff. My wife said, "They sound just like Jehovah's Witnesses."
We then got into an area I admittedly have not done much research in because the answers vary so much - and I am not sure what I believe at this moment:
She started asking me about the paradise hope she has, and the resurrection, and stuff like that. I admitted to her that I have not done all my research into that. She asked me if there were any other religions that taught a paradise hope. I told her the 7th Day Adventists preach this message - but in a slightly different twist. She said that is strange, because the Society claims they are the ONLY ONES that preach this.
We then got into a pretty deep discussion about the JWs view of the heavenly hope vs the earthly hope and I briefly stated from memory the vs in Revelation talking about the two groups, but how they both were located in the same place and had all the same qualities. I admitted to her that "Yes" there are two groups mentioned, but there are not two hopes mentioned.
I did keep admitting to her my research on this was not done, and perhaps this is something we can arrive at together. However, I did sort of outline a sketch of what it appears most of Christianity believes and what the bible says. My wife mentioned the scripture about how Christ opened the way for the ancient Jews (I'm paraphrasing). I told her yes, exactly, from what I have researched it would appear that most Christians believe that the ancient Jews were able to go to heaven after Jesus death and resurrection. Most of the Christian research I have read seems to indicate this is the 144,000 (symbolic number). The other group, the "great crowd", seems to be all Christians AFTER Jesus death.
(Any clarification on an easy way to explain this would be most helpful)
She then asked - well what about the paradise? I mean, that was God's purpose - for the earth to be a paradise, right?
I answered, according to scripture it seems to indicate that. Much of Christianity also speculates that perhaps after Christ's second return and all that happens, that people from heaven could be returned to earth. I told her I know that sounds wacky in some ways, but it doesn't sound any more or less wacky than what the Society says happens to THEIR 144,000 after the thousand-year reign - which is that "it is possible they would be returned to earth".
I pointed out how the Society's view of resurrection is really not that different from Christendom when you think about it. How when we die, and come back, we are the same person, but in a different body. This seems just like Christendom saying that our soul and body are separate. This brought us into a discussion on Jesus resurrection and I pointed out to her how Jesus did have the same body at the time - and it was not because he had a different body that he was not recognized, but because Mary Magdeline and the disciples eyes were "veiled". I pointed out John 20:20 (??) about the "holes where the nails were " in his hands that Thomas wanted to see. This is proof of a physical body, but I pointed out the Society's excuse that maybe Jesus "manufactured" holes in his hands to appease Thomas, and how ridiculous that sounded.
(Any clarification on THIS would also be most helpful)
(For the record, I am not sure I even believe the Christian beliefs at this time. I in fact might ... but I am not committing myself at this point. My main thrust at this point is to help my wife see there are other answers besides the JW answers that seem to match scripture - and aren't as cult-like or oppressive.)
After I finished I still admitted to her that what I told her I did not conclusively believe to be true. But she still actually seemed to accept most of it and not just dismiss it.
I would love to find a local countercult minister or someone who can answer the harder Christian questions like that. I don't even really know where to look for someone like that.
I would also like to find some fairly easy-reading answers to those kinds of questions somewhere online. I have posted a few questions about that stuff to this list but they usually get bombarded with smartass comments from certain atheist posters (I'm not lumping tetrapod into that group) or super technical posts from others.
Is there anything simple to read on this stuff?
Anyways, all in all she seemed satisfied with my answers - or lack of answers.
As of last night ... that is where we stand. Today will be our first meeting at the Kingdom Hall since I told her my doubts about being a JW last Monday. This will result in some more discussion tonight I am sure.
-ithinkisee