Just wondering how you now answer the question "Why does God permit suffering?" (yes I've read the brochure, and placed too many of them). I've taken the attitude that if God did cause things to exist, including the human conscience, what we do with it is our own choice. Accidents happen that take out good people; disease, famine and war kill the innocent; crime occurs.... but at the source of it all is the human ability to choose and control their future. I guess I've decided that God doesn't care what happens to us here, because we are able to control a lot of it. Just pondering and seeking other thoughts on it.
Question for those who still have a God
by sass_my_frass 8 Replies latest members private
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Sad emo
Just because we control our own destinies and mess up as a result, does that necessarily mean that God doesn't care?
I know this is probably the comparison that usually gets rolled out - but does a parent stop a child from doing everything as they grow into adulthood or do they let them learn from their experience - good or bad?
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skyman
He does not care individually about us I do not think. How could he and let pain and suffering go on. Plus the religious hated that is on earth today.
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Double Edge
First of all, I believe in a loving and awesome God because of various experiences I've had in life. That said, I can not speak for Him regarding His reasoning for certain things. Check out this link http://www.carm.org/questions/suffering.htm ... it's an interesting article...rather lengthy, but stay with it.
D.E.
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greendawn
God has allowed for a long but limited time satan and his demonic angels to exert a predominant influence upon this world and even though he restricts their worst excesses their rule over mankind has been an atrocious disaster.
Having said that mankind also bears great responsibility for being ruled by these unseen criminals because they chose to reject his own offer of salvation through His son Jesus. In other words for 2000 years we have a tyranny that could easily be avoided. -
bebu
I guess I've decided that God doesn't care what happens to us here, because we are able to control a lot of it.
Sass... This statement kinda confuses me. If we are able to control a lot of it, then is that God's fault? ... I think the 2 parts which are most confusing are the parts we can't control (disease, like you said), and the whole set-up where we have been even been put in a place of free choice (which leads to our badly-controlled choices). Perhaps that is what you meant--that we should never have been given something so dangerous?
Neither of these 2 objections prove, I think, that God is evil or that God doesn't care. It can only be that the reasons/rationalizations that we can think of are limited to what we can come up with in terms of our experiences in this world, and they are insufficient. Certainly, NO number of Hawaiian vacations, corvettes, mansions or tiramisus are worth the pain we often experience or come across. We would be livid to have someone tell us that the pain in our life--or in the world in general--is worth any positive experience or possession we find on earth! We are finding nothing in the balance here that can counterweigh the depth of pain we have, and that a big clue. The only thing that can ever come close to being worth this pain has got to be something beyond all of our experiences here.
Deeeeeeep breath...
Jesus quoted to the pharisees, "You are gods". That is, humanity has been given an immense trust, or perhaps you could call it potential. We not only are gods (because of freedom of choice), but we become like (or unlike) God thru our choices. We have freedom, ability to create, kill, commit to love, value virtue, and a number of other qualities unique to us. We have the potential for something so awesome, we cannot grasp it. It is dangerous, but on the flip side the 'potential' is so good it is worth the danger.
St. Peter wrote that we have been granted to partake in the divine nature. John said we are children of God if we have the Spirit of God. Revelation was that the beloved of God was made one with Christ, by becoming his bride (a metaphor). To become like God, to be one with God, to multiply the perfection of His character in the human medium, it looks as if for this purpose Jesus suffered, and for which God allows suffering. From God's vantage point, He knows it is worth it.
What I'm going to say may sound nuts to you (likely will), but if you have even once experienced the deep presence of God (not just had a spiritual high, or had some nice meditative moments; I'm referring to an experience which you could never mistake for anything else), you would know that to be granted to be with, and to be like God is the highest joy a human could ever imagine. You would realize that if God's end purpose is for our being like Him (becoming like Him thru the tests of life), it outstrips even the incredible 'hells' of earth. It is what is in store.
I KNOW that is hard to grasp and I am slowly grasping it better (even though it often seems impossible). But it is the thing that is amazing me, the more I see it.
...Pre-empting the question of "Well, what about all the folks who have suffered pain without any knowledge of God? How fair is THAT?" I simply say ...I am not worried! God is gracious as I know Him, and if He really enjoys cheating hell, then He'll certainly permit an access of Christ's grace for the "poor in spirit" everywhere (Jesus said the poor in spirit --didn't say they had to be Christians only--were blessed). All the pains of those are not in vain, either. God knows loopholes, and that's enough for me to relax.
Boiling water hardens eggs, but softens spaghetti. Each of us find out (God shows us in the end) what we chose... think of a JW pharisee elder, or any religious person with a heart of stone, who finds himself without words when he is shown how pride, not love, defined him. There would be no confidence left at that point to object.
Last thought: think of how the Quotes website caused damage to the WTS, and how they smashed it. But the result was lots of mirror sites, all perfectly replicating the original. Too bad, WTS!! The result of Christ's getting crushed is to be lots of mirrors, all (eventually) perfectly replicating the original--we become like Christ, who himself is the exact representation/reflection of God. It's the only kind of reason that could settle the mind about the problem of God's allowing pain.
This is a very long answer, but it's still very short, considering the weight of your question.
bebu
Deeeeeeep breath... clicks 'submit'
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nowisee
bebu.... thank you for that wonderful answer. you never fail to help me see more clearly. tho i wish i could say i have had that experience of the presence of the Lord, an experience that could not be mistaken or misinterpreted. happy new year! love, nowisee
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Qcmbr
Maybe because sufferring is part of life itself in that God himself still experiences pain (for his children) and that without an understanding of pain (spiritual/mental/physical) He could not relate to us nor we to Him.
Without pain you automatically remove any opposite concepts - the reason anyone can even ask the question and conceptualise it is because they experienece it. Light requires darkness, happiness requires misery etc.. this life is the greatest school there is and it has to be overcome alone (Jesus had to finish the job without His Father.) -
bebu
Happy New Year, nowisee! I'm going to try to send you a pm today, if I can.
...I was thinking last night about how the "Paradise" that JWs preach falls flat, because it says that petting lions and lovely, relaxed living in idyllic country settings will be the reward of a few people-- and it makes up for all the pain and suffering the whole world went thru. Again, it is like proposing that an extended group "Hawaiian vacation" will make up for senseless and unspeakable things. This is so amazingly shallow, the only ones who don't feel troubled by it are the ones who care only about their own necks, and are ready to shrug if everyone ended up as bird food. Others might believe it in some way, but struggle with it (a good thing). IMO.
bebu