Welcome to Fellow Newbie Oracle

by SnakesInTheTower 20 Replies latest jw friends

  • SnakesInTheTower
    SnakesInTheTower

    Welcome Oracle.

    I posted a new topic so I could expand on some comments without hijacking the hugging 5thgeneration thread.

    My take on point 1: blood transfusions. Personally, I still would not accept blood transfusions, but not because of some Borg Mind Control. One thing the Dubs have done for medical science is force the doctors to think outside of the box and find alternatives for the transfusions. BUT...I believe it should be each individuals personal choice to take or not take any medical treatment, not a bunch of fools in the Ivory WTower.

    Points 2 and 4 together: You likely have, as have I, served on multiple JCs. I have to think a little harder to remember all of them now, but in 5 years I am certain I served on a dozen, maybe a couple of dozen. By Borg standards, most of them deserved it. By standards of human decency, maybe only 1 or 2. I feel awful about some that I had to D/F. How judgemental. Yet, as elders and fellow elders, we cannot beat ourselves up because we did what we believed to be right at the time....too bad it was based on faulty Borg reasoning. One of my last classes in college recently was psychology. I did a paper/presentation on depression and suicide. I often wonder how many JWs committed suicide after being D/F or involuntarily D/A'd because we as elders essentially yanked the rug out from their entire social support structure? If I found out that happened to someone I was responsible for on my watch, I dont know if I could handle that emotionally.

    Point 3: This point pi88es me off! Child molesters! I would like to post what I want done to these &&$*KERS, but I am sure that post would be deleted. unless I posted on the private board. ...I know of one brother (not an elder/ms) who constantly has a certain little 5 year old girl sit on his lap or gives her candy or takes her into the lobby during the meeting...not all the other kids,,,,mostly her. I know that he has been involved in someone not his wife....getting her drunk (she is an alcoholic and he knows it), then touching her breasts, kissing her, etc...yet denies it...never getting caught, protected by his buddy on the BOE. This brother got fired from work for downloading porn...no "proof" of course. Don't ya ever get that gut feeling about someone? But I would never make a horrid accusation and ruin him unless I was absolutely certain. But I certainly was not going to ignore the unhealthy fascination he has with little girls and big girls alike. Before I left that congo, I spoke to the young father of the little 5 yr old girl (the father is a MS) and told him to have his daughter sit with him. Since I had no proof of anything officially, I had to couch it in terms of "setting a good example" as a parent having her next to he and his wife. This happened...thank goodness Then the brother moved on to another little 6 year old girl who only has her mother there. I spoke to that mother as well, telling her in no uncertain terms that since she already has experience with molesters in her family, she can understand why it would be wise to have her daughter sit with her and not a strange brother. She readily agreed and I was relieved to see her daugher safely ensconced next to her mom.

    Point 5: LOYALTY. I am loyal to my friends and family over the Borg any day of the week. I will not turn my back on them. As some have reminded me, they may turn their back on me if I am D/F. Those I have D/F'd as an elder, I have contacted one or two and apologized. I have emotionally supported one sister who is a recovering alcoholic, taken her calls at 3 am even though associating with her while D/F could get me D/F since I am no longer an elder. She has since been reinstated. I could not live with myself if she killed herself during an alcoholic binge because no one would take her calls. You are right that the Borg (organization if you had not figured that nickname out) is only about being loyal to itself.

    As for your plan for eating away at the Tower from the inside: I admire your ambition, but the reality is that the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, Jehovah's Witnesses, International Bible Students Association, Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses and all of its legal agencies are all nothing but a cult masqueading as a religion but is really nothing but a book and electronic media publishing corporation after every last dime they can squeeze out of the rank and file dubs before they themselves are forced into bankruptcy over child molestation settlements. I am sure that the GB and other higher ups are squirreling away millions offshore pending the day that the whole house of cards comes tumbling down....

    .....breathe Snake....breathe........

    Now...

    Let's spread the good word - no one deserves to be trapped in a mind control group - there is so much that life has to offer outside the prison of "the truth".

    Lets face it, as jaguarbass pointed out to me in a previous post...if we are still in..for any reason, but looking out, then we are fence straddlers. As such, we are still ourselves trapped in the prison of the "truth" as those we wish to liberate. Really the blind leading the blind. I stay in for the wrong reasons, as keith correctly also mentioned to me previously. But family and social ties are strong among the JW. It takes awhile to establish new ties while untangling and cutting the previous ties.

    As for remaining an elder..if you really are, and I take at face value that you are....please dont. I was an elder and the hypocrisy ate away at me to the point that I gave the BOE a reason to pull the trigger and delete me. Nothing serious, nothing JC, just enough. If you remain an elder with your feelings about the Borg, then you are as much a hypocrite as those hypocrites you dont like. Fade out and come off as an elder, then try to assist others the best you can. You dont say if you have family in this post, and you dont say why you stay in other than your admirable but delusional wish to help others.

    I wish you the best, look forward to future posts, and welcome to the board.

    SnakesInTheTower (of the Fading Sheep Class)

  • Vernon Williams
    Vernon Williams

    Wow......

  • jwfacts
    jwfacts

    Welcome Oracle.

    One thing the Dubs have done for medical science is force the doctors to think outside of the box and find alternatives for the transfusions.

    This is not actually correct. In research that I have done I have found that doctors have been looking for non blood alternatives since the early 1900's. well before JWs changed their stance on blood. What the Watchtower has done is supply human guinea pigs for testing of new treatments.

  • Crumpet
    Crumpet

    Wow - to echo someone else. There is so much to think about there. I think you should retitle the thread though as many will miss what is in fact a really full and varied view of life as an elder and in particular focussing on Dfing debacles. really thank you for all you said.

    She has since been reinstated. I could not live with myself if she killed herself during an alcoholic binge because no one would take her calls.

    If only all elders took such responsibility.

  • DJK
    DJK

    You have a conscience and compassion. That means one of the tubes connecting your brain to the org is disconnected. Work on disconnecting the rest unless you prefer staying tied to a few, who may see that as a weakness instead of a strength.

  • Pistoff
    Pistoff
    My take on point 1: blood transfusions. Personally, I still would not accept blood transfusions

    You mean if you were bleeding out, you would refuse to take blood????

    Why?

    If you are dying anyway, you would not risk it?

  • SnakesInTheTower
    SnakesInTheTower

    hiya crumpet....

    as for retitling the thread, is that possible? Or should I start a new thread and copy the original post? Have a suggestion for thread topic title? PM me in case I dont see this thread again. (by the way, maybe one day I can go to one of those Dallas get togethers and meet you and the others...how great would that be?)

    And who ever said I should completely disconnect from the Borg, how right you are....soon, very soon.

    As for taking blood, I stand corrected about my comment about the impetus to find alternatives. I did look up some info on the net. Still trying to get the WTrash rubbish outta my head.

    And no, I would not take blood, but not for WT reasoning...., but then again, I hate needles.

  • SnakesInTheTower
    SnakesInTheTower

    Crumpet... I did as you suggested...and reposted under this new topic link:

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/134773/1.ashx

    SnakesInTheTower (of the Fading Sheep Class)

  • The Oracle
    The Oracle

    Hey SnakesintheTower,

    Thanks for the welcome post.

    Just getting to know how to work my way around this cool site and I just discovered your post.

    Glad to hear you are in agreement with points 2 though 5, and are warming up to point #1 (blood transfusions). Bottom line is that I agree with the right to choose medical treatment, but if you refuse blood or blood fractions please make sure you are refusing for the right reasons! Wouldn't it be a tragedy if those that you love and who possibly rely on you for caregiving, lose you because of a "truth hangover" resulting in your refusal to accept life saving treatment? Personally, I would choose blood alternatives as long as it was medically advisable to do so. Call it a mini hangover if you must, but I honestly don't like the idea of someone else's blood coursing through my veins and the dangers that that may bring.... UNLESS IT IS GOING TO SAVE MY LIFE!!!

    As for your comments on, as you refer to it "my plan on eating away the tower from the inside", I need to clarify my actual plan. It is not to eat away the tower from the inside, it is to "free as many minds as I can from the inside". There is a big difference. You have seen the Matrix no doubt? NEO had to jack in to the Matrix to get people out. At present that is all I am trying to do, free minds. If I can free 10, 20, 30, or 100 minds before I leave then I will be a very happy man. Much happier than I was after watching my first bible study get baptised. This time I'll be doing something that is TRULY GOOD!

    As for your comments on my decision to remain as an elder for the time being, I see exactly where you are coming from. However, allow me to expound a little on my rationale for choosing to do so, and I hope you will understand why I have made that decision for now...and don't view me a dirty hypocritical elder

    First off let me say that all that really matters to me at this point is that I am able to free as many minds as possible before I finally bid farewell. Nothing else matters in connection with my involvement in "the truth". So whatever helps to achieve that goal whether it be serving as an elder, a special pioneer, circuit overseer - whatever ... I don't care. All I care about are results at this point. I don't allow the hypocrisy angle to deter me from my goal, because in the end, all that really matters is how many people are free and how many are still trapped. It's like the British double agent who was stealing secrets for his government from the Nazi's in WWII. Do you think he worried about how hypocritical he was being, pretending to work for the Nazi's? It helps to realize who the real enemy is, so that the mind is able to focus on what is important and what really matters at the end of the day.

    Having said that I have developed a bit of a code of conduct, or set of guidelines that I try hard to follow, while I continue to hold down "elder" duties. This helps me to deal with those yucky feelings that come along with being a double agent. I can share them with you I suppose, after all this is a friendly place where I can post all of my crazy opinions and musings... those who want to read it can....those who want to move on to something more interesting will undoubtedly do so! But I invite feedback and specific questions on what I am up to!

    The Oracles Guidelines for Staying on as an Elder

    1) When praying at any meeting;

    - do not pray for Jehovah's spirit to be with the Faithful and
    Discreet Slave Class, the governing body, the Watchtower, the
    bethel etc
    - pray for Jehovah's spirit to be with the members of the
    congregation
    - thank Jehovah for the bible
    - thank Jehovah for the principles contained in the bible like - be
    specific - love of neighbour, generosity, forgiveness etc.
    - pray for help in cultivating the fruitages of the spirit
    - pray for forgiveness of sins
    - pray for strength
    - pray for wisdom to make good decisions
    - pray for understanding and knowledge and clear thinking ability
    - pray to help us individually to develop and listen to our
    consciences
    - promote individual responsibilities and accountability
    - avoid saying anything that promotes group think
    - avoid saying anything that promotes hatred for the world or for
    any individuals
    - pray for young ones to develop "a spirit of learning" and to
    continue to read and take in knowledge, and to research


    2) When commenting at the meetings

    - do not support any teaching you know to be false
    - where possible introduce doubt in any false teaching
    - comment on bible texts that you support and believe in
    - wherever possible introduce the thought of being balanced and
    being responsible for making our own decisions
    - wherever possible emphasize that the faithful and discreet slave
    has made many mistakes in the past, and are imperfect like the rest
    of us
    - wherever possible make references to past teachings that have
    changed, noting that they have changed. This can easily be done
    under the auspices of keeping up with Jehovah's organization, and
    making sure we have the latest understanding

    3) When in Elders meetings;

    - quote the scriptures often
    - always consider the welfare of others as paramount in your mind
    - consider the feelings of the sheep
    - do not allow other elders to speak disparigingly of any members
    of the congregation
    - when another elder makes a joke about anyone who is considered
    spiritually weak, rebuke that one in a kind manner
    - when elders speak of priveleges of service in a manner that
    reflects ambition, rebuke them and remind them that we are in a
    position of servitude
    - do not promote teachings that are false
    - suggest local needs topics that will help promote doubt in "the
    truth", or that provide a general focus on bible principles that
    are in line with human decency
    - take careful notes of everything that is said
    - wherever possible encourage that professional help be suggested
    to any member of the congregation where there is an obvious case of
    psychological troubles.
    - Strongly discourage any elder from counseling any brother or
    sister with mental issues of any kind
    - Strongly discourage any elder from getting involved in marital in
    private family matters
    - whenever a matter is decided where an elder needs to counsel
    someone and you do not agree with the counsel, be sure to volunteer
    to deliver the counsel and then seek to sabatoge the counsel by
    speaking with the other elder assigned and make sure the counsel is
    softened or changed sufficiently so that it does not cause discouragement or psychological damage
    - whenever the law is broken inform the body that your conscience
    dictates that you must report it to the authorities
    - wherever possible make publisher cards disappear, especially
    those that are in the file of inactive publishers
    - collect the names and contact information of as many other elders
    as you can whenever given the opportunity to do so
    - always act shocked whenever something is said that does not make
    common sense, even if it is something taught by the society
    - often ask if that is the current teaching, and frequently
    reminiscent about past understandings and policies.
    - introduce the terms "policy" and "position" when it comes to
    published understandings and interpretations
    - where possible use the term "kill" or "killed" instead of terms
    like "destroyed" or "removed" when referring to people who will die
    at Armageddon. Slip in the occassional "justifiably murdered" by
    Jehovah or by his angels, or something similar if you can get away
    with it.
    - when the blood issue comes up, make sure all the elders are very
    well aware of the latest understanding in allowing many new blood
    fractions to be taken. Emphasise the need to be kept up to date,
    and that many people may needlessly die, or that children may
    needlessly lose a mother or a father if we are not up to date in
    making sure the sheep know that this is a conscience matter now.
    Emphasise that this was not until very recently the case, and that
    one could be disfellowshipped until very recently for taking many
    of these blood fractions. Create doubts that the current policy
    will remain in effect and that it is likely that more "blood
    reform" is coming.
    - do not do or say anything to blow your cover
    - do not do or say anything to blow the cover of anyone else who is
    working to help free minds from the inside

  • SnakesInTheTower
    SnakesInTheTower

    Oracle

    I appreciate many of the points you listed. First though, please dont take the hypocritical comment too personally. Just understand from someone looking in on your situation, maybe some here, although I cannot presume to speak for anyone but my self.

    As long as we don't believe the blatherings of the old coots on the GB and the published thoughts in the WTrash magazine and other printed literature waste of natural resources, yet stay in at any level and any capacity, we are by definition hypocritical. Merriam-Webster Dictionary defines hypocricy this way:

    1: a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion
    2: a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings

    Definition 2 fits you. However, the background of the word in Greek hypokritEs means actor according to the same resource. So, in this context, in the truest root of the word hypocrite, you are. This is not a bad thing what you are attempting to do. I do think that the longer we try to be hypocrites (either you as actingas an elder or me as a acting as a publsiher (ie, slow fader), the more it will mess with us emotionally and psychologically. Technically, you feel like you are acting with not in contradiction to your stated beliefs by trying to free the minds of the dubs. A very very very thin line separates the definition. You are really in uncharted territory.

    Many of the things in your Elder Code of Conduct I did as an elder. Probably why I am not an elder anymore. I was going to resign, and verbally had. But I decided to make the BOE pull the trigger themselves during the CO visit, so I retracted the verbal resignation and told them they had to do what they felt they needed to do. Which they did. Ironically, if I had resigned instead of being deleted, I would have been quickly reappointed in my new congo because their PO knows the truth about my former congos. Yet, I was exhausted physically, emotionally torn, and it was messing with me psychologically. No more. I dont need to be an elder to help others. In fact, I now have more credibility as a former elder because I am not "one of them." Publishers in my former congos call me and tell me things they never would have told me as an elder. The irony is I now have more than enough evidence to put away quite a few of the bad apple elders. The problem is I no longer have credibility with the Borg since I was removed and my "jacket" (cop term for personnel file) is tainted. And those who shared the information with me trusted me not to say anything because they still have to exist in the social circle Cult of the Borg. They just wanted me to know the truth about those men bastards.

    So Oracle, I hope to hear more of the Adventures of Oracle on the pages of JWD. Everyone else, pray for us and those like us, torn between two worlds. One a prison, the other real freedom

    Sincerely and with respect

    SnakesInTheTower (of the Hypocritical Sheep Class)

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