An Unbeliever's Guide to Believing the Bible

by thinker 17 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • thinker
    thinker

    JWs believe the bible is God's word and that every word in it comes from God. It's a waste of time to try to disprove the bible based on science or any source outside the bible, because they just don't stand up to something someone believes came from God Himself. So I've decided to use all that I've learned from JWs about the bible to show them that they can't trust everything in the bible.

    There's an old saying that says, "Seeing is believing." Has anyone actually seen God? Some parts of the bible say that some men have spoken to God "face to face" and elsewhere it says that no man may see God and live (Ex33:20). Ask any JW about this and they'll tell you that no one can see God and live, and that all those prophets who are said to have talked to God or seen God, actually saw one of God's angels.

    "Wait just a minute", you say, " I know a little bit about the bible and Paul said that Satan can transform himself into an angel of light" (2Cor11:14). How do we know those prophets of old weren't being deceived by Satan in the form of one of God's angels? Didn't John say that Satan has deceived the whole world? Doesn't Matt 24:24 say that even the "chosen ones" can be misled? Surely we need to study this carefully to determine the truth. Isn't that what John said to do (John4:1)?

    Let's take a look at Satan in the bible. He's found from first book to the last book of the bible. In both the first and the last he takes the appearance of a serpent (Gen 3, Rev 12). In Genesis, Satan (as the serpent) causes the fall of man and God says to the serpent, "you are the cursed one out of all the domestic animals and out of all the wild beasts of the field" (Gen 3:14). This was the only animal ever cursed by God. Isn't it strange then that Moses performed magic in Egypt with the only animal God ever cursed, a serpent? (Ex 4:2-4). In fact, Moses seems to have had a real love for serpents. He even had his priests make a bronze serpent idol and placed it on a staff. According to your Insight Book the Israelites fell into false and pagan worship of that serpent idol for over 300 years! Do you really think someone like that was talking to and seeing one of God's angels?

    Could Satan really have fooled Moses? Well, Moses was just an imperfect man so it's certainly possible. And just because a few 'miracles' occured doesn't really prove it wasn't Satan. In 2Thes2:9 it says Satan uses deception and has the ability to perform "powerful works, lying signs, and potents". Portents are signs of something about to happen; similar to a prophesy.

    So far this is just circumstantial evidence. Let's see if we can find something more definite in the bible. Look at 2Peter 2:2 "However, there also came to be false prophets among the people..." This clearly says that the people (Israelites) had false prophets among them. But wouldn't the Jews have rejected the false prophets and not included them in the bible? Jesus's own words provide us with the answer: ""Woe, whenever all men speak well of

    YOU , for things like these are what their forefathers did to the false prophets."(Luke 6:26). The false prophets weren't rejected; they were highly regarded!

    Read Genesis 15:8-17 concerning Abraham's covenant with his 'god' and tell me if it sounds like a Satanic ritual: cut up the dead animals, separate the halves and have your 'god' walk between the bloody pieces in the form of a dark, smoky cloud with a burning ember at it's center. Doesn't that sound like something Satan would enjoy?

    You may still find it hard to believe that Satan fooled some of the people in the bible, but there is a clear statement from Jesus that tells us it's true. One day a number of pious Jews came to the Temple to talk with Jesus. These people had followed their religion to the best of their ability as their prophets and priests had instructed them. They said to Jesus, "We were not born from fornication; we have one Father, God". And Jesus replied to them, "YOU are from YOUR father the Devil..." (John 8:31-44). These people clearly thought they were following God, but Jesus said they'd been deceived by Satan. How much more proof do you need that Satan has put his own lies right inside the bible in order to trick the whole world into worshipping him rather than God? I suggest you follow John's advice and "do not believe every inspired expression" (even if you find it in the bible), "but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God" (that is, test it against your own conscience), "because many false prophets have gone forth into the world." And some of them made it into the bible, a book compiled by imperfect men.

    thinker

  • Shining One
    Shining One

    >>JWs believe the bible is God's word and that every word in it comes from God. It's a waste of time to try to disprove the bible based on science or any source outside the bible, because they just don't stand up to something someone believes came from God Himself. So I've decided to use all that I've learned from JWs about the bible to show them that they can't trust everything in the bible.

    And the very same point applies to the naturalists doctrines: evolution, accidentalism and atheism. BTW, I hate to tell you this but you’ve been taught by blind guides, so watch out for the next pit.

    >>There's an old saying that says, "Seeing is believing." Has anyone actually seen God? Some parts of the bible say that some men have spoken to God "face to face" and elsewhere it says that no man may see God and live (Ex33:20).

    Have you ever heard of the theological term, ‘figurative language‘? Obviously not, or you would not post such a ridiculous ‘case in point’. This is a ‘figure of speech’. This is figurative language and there is a discipline of scriptural interpretation devoted to this. “If a passage of scripture appears to contradict a clearer passage then you must ask if the passage is to be taken as literal.”

    >>Ask any JW about this and they'll tell you that no one can see God and live, and that all those prophets who are said to have talked to God or seen God, actually saw one of God's angels.

    That statement stands true and it is a reference to God in His full glory. God sets the rules: he has the divine providence to enable a spiritual being to materialize but said being cannot do so without God’s specific approval. The most powerful evil spirit, the ‘Bright Morning Star’, Lucifer himself cannot do so. , without God’s permission.

    >>"Wait just a minute", you say, " I know a little bit about the bible and Paul said that Satan can transform himself into an angel of light" (2Cor11:14). How do we know those prophets of old weren't being deceived by Satan in the form of one of God's angels? Didn't John say that Satan has deceived the whole world? Doesn't Matt 24:24 say that even the "chosen ones" can be misled? Surely we need to study this carefully to determine the truth. Isn't that what John said to do (John4:1)?

    ‘Transforming himself into an ‘angel of light’ is a metaphor for Satan mimicking God by producing good works in cults meant to deceive human beings.

    >>Let's take a look at Satan in the bible. He's found from first book to the last book of the bible. In both the first and the last he takes the appearance of a serpent (Gen 3, Rev 12). In Genesis, Satan (as the serpent) causes the fall of man and God says to the serpent, "you are the cursed one out of all the domestic animals and out of all the wild beasts of the field" (Gen 3:14). This was the only animal ever cursed by God.

    Prophetic language, see the above reference. I bet you were tempted to point out ‘God walking in the garden in the cool of the evening’?

    >>Isn't it strange then that Moses performed magic in Egypt with the only animal God ever cursed, a serpent? (Ex 4:2-4). In fact, Moses seems to have had a real love for serpents. He even had his priests make a bronze serpent idol and placed it on a staff. According to your Insight Book the Israelites fell into false and pagan worship of that serpent idol for over 300 years! Do you really think someone like that was talking to and seeing one of God's angels?

    And just as the people were bitten by snakes, they looked to the image ‘lifted up’ (under God’s direction) to be saved, just like Jesus was lifted up to ‘bring all men to Him’! This where you can see a typology of Christ before His incarnation. You guys keep missing the point behind the passage and in your rush to ridicule you make all kinds of interpretive errors. I myself love the irony in this set of passages!

    >>Could Satan really have fooled Moses? Well, Moses was just an imperfect man so it's certainly possible. And just because a few 'miracles' occurred doesn't really prove it wasn't Satan. In 2Thes2:9 it says Satan uses deception and has the ability to perform "powerful works, lying signs, and portents". Portents are signs of something about to happen; similar to a prophesy.

    Again, you are ignoring the providence of God. Satan has no power except that which God grants him. That point is made crystal clear in the book of Job. Lucifer could not ‘touch’ Job without God’s permission!

    >>So far this is just circumstantial evidence. Let's see if we can find something more definite in the bible. Look at 2Peter 2:2 "However, there also came to be false prophets among the people..." This clearly says that the people (Israelites) had false prophets among them. But wouldn't the Jews have rejected the false prophets and not included them in the bible? Jesus's own words provide us with the answer: ""Woe, whenever all men speak well of YOU , for things like these are what their forefathers did to the false prophets."(Luke 6:26). The false prophets weren't rejected; they were highly regarded!

    Yes and what people kept getting judgment heaped upon them due to their own inequities? They were warned from the beginning of their wanderings and kept it up so well that they crucified the chosen one of God!

    >>Read Genesis 15:8-17 concerning Abraham's covenant with his 'god' and tell me if it sounds like a Satanic ritual: cut up the dead animals, separate the halves and have your 'god' walk between the bloody pieces in the form of a dark, smoky cloud with a burning ember at it's center. Doesn't that sound like something Satan would enjoy?

    Oh my gosh!!!! You need some education. Go to the library and check out Henry Virkler’s “Hermeneutics, Principals and Processes of Biblical Interpretation’ It is a basic seminary level book that you need to read before you attempt to discredit something you have no understanding of to begin with.

    >>You may still find it hard to believe that Satan fooled some of the people in the bible, but there is a clear statement from Jesus that tells us it's true. One day a number of pious Jews came to the Temple to talk with Jesus. These people had followed their religion to the best of their ability as their prophets and priests had instructed them. They said to Jesus, "We were not born from fornication; we have one Father, God". And Jesus replied to them, "YOU are from YOUR father the Devil..." (John 8:31-44).

    The Jews ascribed erroneous laws and superstition into their various factions’ teachings! Yes a good analogy for the Watchtower Society but next you go off the ‘deep end’ (see metaphor; don’t take ‘deep end’ as falling in a swimming pool!

    >>These people clearly thought they were following God, but Jesus said they'd been deceived by Satan. How much more proof do you need that Satan has put his own lies right inside the bible in order to trick the whole world into worshipping him rather than God?

    Ohhhh mannnn, come on now. What can you be THINKING of THINKER, LOL.

    >>I suggest you follow John's advice and "do not believe every inspired expression" (even if you find it in the bible), "but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God" (that is, test it against your own conscience), "because many false prophets have gone forth into the world." And some of them made it into the bible, a book compiled by imperfect men.

    A book inspired of God, using the imperfect human beings to write infallible scripture!

    >>thinker

    Thinker? Only on the surface….

    Rex

  • Carmel
    Carmel

    Rex

    "Beautify your tongues, O people, with truthfulness, and adorn your souls with the ornament of honesty. Beware, O people, that ye deal not treacherously with any one. Be ye the trustees of God amongst His creatures, and the emblems of His generosity amidst His people. They that follow their lusts and corrupt inclinations, have erred and dissipated their efforts. They, indeed, are of the lost. Strive, O people, that your eyes may be directed towards the mercy of God, that your hearts may be attuned to His wondrous remembrance, that your souls may rest confidently upon His grace and bounty, that your feet may tread the path of His good-pleasure. Such are the counsels which I bequeath unto you. Would that ye might follow My counsels!"

    (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 296)

  • tdogg
    tdogg

    And here comes Rex to save the day! (music from Bonanza begins).

    Rex enters sage left, dual Bibles slung at the hips. "Put em up pardner, there'll be no Bible bashing round these parts..."

    Dont try to show that his bible is wrong, he will only attack naturalists and that will prove to you that his bible is not wrong, because in rexology if naturalists are wrong then the Bible must be right.

    Dont try to point out something that is blatently obvious because in rexology there is an excuse for everything. If it doesn't make sense it must have been 'figurative' or 'prophetic'. How can you tell the difference? Well if it doesn't make sense of course.

    Don't try to challenge belief in god, because rexologists know all there is to know about god. They can tell you what he is like, what he thinks, what he has done, and what he is going to do. They know how much power he has, what his rules are, and what he thinks of you. Remarkable amount of information they have about this invisible, impercievable, inconceiveable creature.

  • thinker
    thinker

    Hello Shining One,

    You mention one of Satan's other titles "the bright morning star". Isn't your screen name a reference to that title? Just who are you working for?

    You said of Abraham's ritual, "Oh my gosh!!!! You need some education. Go to the library and check out Henry Virkler’s "Hermeneutics, Principals and Processes of Biblical Interpretation’ It is a basic seminary level book that you need to read before you attempt to discredit something you have no understanding of to begin with."

    Why go to all that trouble when the bible itself explains that this was sympathetic magic? It's a pagan practice to it's core.

    thinker

  • jwfacts
    jwfacts

    nice come back thinker

  • thinker
    thinker

    Shing One,

    You brought up many points and I hope to find time to address them all. You claim the Book of Job shows Satan is subservient to God. In that book it says Satan was called to heaven to have a meeting with God. Did a man witness this conversation? Of course not, such a man would die after seeing God. So how did this conversation become known to men? Either it was invented by man or Satan planted it in their minds. I'm sure Satan would love for you to think he's weak and subservient to God. Then he could blame it all on God. "I was only following orders, God allowed it all to happen, etc...

    When Jesus described the choice between God and Satan, he said, "no man can serve two masters". Satan is not some underling of God's; by his rebellion he set himself up as an alternative to God. The very name given to the devil means "adversary", someone in an adversarial relationship to God. Next you'll be trying to tell me that God (thru Satan) tempted Jesus and that Jesus rebuked God!

    thinker

  • thinker
    thinker

    Here's more proof that Abraham's 'god' was really Satan: In Gen 15:13 Abraham's 'god' says: "You may know for sure that your seed will become an alien resident in a land not theirs, and they will have to serve them, and these will certainly afflict them for four hundred years." Actual time the Israelites spent in Egypt (based on chronology) was 215 years. A false prophesy from Satan posing as god.

    Still not convinced? Look at the two accounts of David's census:

    2 Samuel 24:1 "And again the anger of Jehovah came to be hot against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying: "Go, take a count of Israel and Judah."

    1 Chronicles 21:1 "And Satan proceeded to stand up against Israel and to incite David to number Israel."

    Was it Jehovah or was it Satan? Both accounts are accurate because by that time the Israelite's 'god' WAS Satan.

    thinker

  • out of the box
    out of the box

    thinker,

    You really made me think about something I had never heard before! Thanks for the post!

    out of the box

  • thinker
    thinker

    Hello Out of the box,

    You're very welcome. This started when I realized that the only thing a bible believer will trust is the bible, so why not use the same tools and piece together verses just like they do...

    Take care,

    thinker

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