The Crucifixion in History (page 2)

Leolaia

Ah, okay....we are in agreement then...:)))

hooberus

Prometheus "nailed to an upright beam of timber to which was affixed arms of wood" ?

Some claim that Prometheus "was nailed to an upright beam of timber to which was affixed arms of wood"

The following comes from a detailed Prometheus page:

Some anti-Christian sites claim that the story of Christ's passion and resurrection is a retelling of the story of Prometheus.

This one

Kersey Graves states that "Caucasians chanted praises to their slain Divine Intercessor, Prometheus, for voluntarily offering himself upon the cross for the sins of a fallen race", and that at his death, the whole world was engulfed in darkness. The writer claims, obviously falsely, that Hesiod and Seneca describe Prometheus as being crucified, and dying for the sins of his people. The writer quotes some unreferenced doggerel from "the poet" about Prometheus as a Christ-like savior.

Today's outspoken atheists usually pride themselves on being scholarly, scientific, and having their facts straight. But as far as I can tell, these are just fabrications. http://www.pathguy.com/promethe.htm

Leolaia

Hooberus, you are aware aren't you of Lucian's Prometheus on Caucasus (c. A.D. 150-160)? It uses the verb anastauroo "crucify" and indicates that the arms were outstretched from side to side, as in a two-beamed cross: "Suppose we crucify [ ανεσταυρωσθαι ] him half-way up somewhere hereabouts over the ravine, with his hands out-stretched from crag to crag." (Prometheus, 1; translated by Fowler & Fowler, and A. M. Harmon, in the Loeb Classical Library (Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1929). No mention of a wooden patibulum (traverse beam), but the position of the body recalls that of the two-beamed cross (which Lucian otherwise described explicitly in his Trial in the Court of Vowels, written shortly before Prometheus). Lucian confirms this in a further statement, where he specifies that the hands were each nailed separately: "Do you suppose there is not room on the Caucasus to peg out a couple of us? Come, your right hand! Clamp it down, Hephaestus, and in with the nails; bring down the hammer with a will. Now the left, make sure work of that too." (Prometheus, 2)

As an aside, the WTS falsely and dishonestly claimed that Lucian's use of the word "crucify" is at odds with a two-beamed cross (NWT, 1950 edition, p. 769; NWT, 1984 edition, p. 1577). This is one example of false claims made by the Society on the matter (another is their mischaracterization of Livy's use of the word crux).

Leolaia

hooberus

Leolaia, I have heard of the Lucian version. It would be interesting to find an online version of it. It seems that it was written after the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.

One myth site makes the following claim: "Yet even in the extant translations of Prometheus Bound by Aeschylus, the god is plainly crucified, albeit on a rock:

Force: Seize his hands and master him.
Now to your hammer. Pin him to the rocks.
Drive stoutly now your wedge straight through his breast, the stubborn jaw of steel that cannot break.
Now for his feet. Drive the nails through the flesh."
http://www.askwhy.co.uk/awmob/awpagan/pag240RELOtherSaviours.html

I have not been able to find this phrase in any online version of Prometheus bound by Aeschylus. It would be interesting to know the source and date of this version.

I may have found an online version of the account by Hesiod. (which should be the oldest) (ll. 507-543) Now Iapetus took to wife the neat-ankled mad
Clymene, daughter of Ocean, and went up with her into one bed.
And she bare him a stout-hearted son, Atlas: also she bare very
glorious Menoetius and clever Prometheus, full of various wiles,
and scatter-brained Epimetheus who from the first was a mischief
to men who eat bread; for it was he who first took of Zeus the
woman, the maiden whom he had formed. But Menoetius was
outrageous, and far-seeing Zeus struck him with a lurid
thunderbolt and sent him down to Erebus because of his mad
presumption and exceeding pride. And Atlas through hard
constraint upholds the wide heaven with unwearying head and arms,
standing at the borders of the earth before the clear-voiced
Hesperides; for this lot wise Zeus assigned to him. And ready-
witted Prometheus he bound with inextricable bonds, cruel chains,
and drove a shaft through his middle, and set on him a long-
winged eagle, which used to eat his immortal liver; but by night
the liver grew as much again everyway as the long-winged bird
devoured in the whole day. That bird Heracles, the valiant son
of shapely-ankled Alcmene, slew; and delivered the son of Iapetus
from the cruel plague, and released him from his affliction --
not without the will of Olympian Zeus who reigns on high, that
the glory of Heracles the Theban-born might be yet greater than
it was before over the plenteous earth. This, then, he regarded,
and honoured his famous son; though he was angry, he ceased from
the wrath which he had before because Prometheus matched himself
in wit with the almighty son of Cronos. For when the gods and
mortal men had a dispute at Mecone, even then Prometheus was
forward to cut up a great ox and set portions before them, trying
to befool the mind of Zeus. Before the rest he set flesh and
inner parts thick with fat upon the hide, covering them with an
ox paunch; but for Zeus he put the white bones dressed up with
cunning art and covered with shining fat. Then the father of men
and of gods said to him: http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/Hesiod/theogony.html

Leolaia

Leolaia, I have heard of the Lucian version. It would be interesting to find an online version of it. It seems that it was written after the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.

Here's the online text: http://www.grammatika.150m.com/lucianprometheus.htm

Lucian's version of the story is his own idiosyncratic take on it and certainly departs from the traditional tale in many respects. Lucian was a pagan and tho he wrote after Christianity took root, he had somewhat of a fixation on Roman crucifixion itself (e.g. his Trial) and thus it would seem unwarranted to see in his version of Prometheus an allusion to Jesus. It is generally believed that the Dialogue of Philopatris was a later forgery (and thus the author generally designated as Pseudo-Lucian) and thus proves no acquaintance with Christianity on Lucian's part.

Leolaia

Blueblades

It might interest you to know that the WT.Society has a picture of Christians being crucified on cross beams not upright stakes,in the blood brochure.Did someone in the proof department overlook this photo.

Blueblades

Leolaia

Whoa, very interesting....you got a link to that? That's quite a change from the Revelation Climax book.

hooberus

Here is another description of Roman Crucifixion. Since the crucifixion of Jesus Christ follows this, and since Roman crucifixion was used frequently during this time, there is no need to speculate a "pagan origin" for the death of Jesus Christ.

New Catholic Encyclopedia p. 485

From this form of execution was developed crucifixion in the strict sene, whereby the outstreatched arms of the victim were tied or nailed to a crossbeam ( patibulum ), which was then laid in a groove across the top or suspended by means of a notch in the side of an upright stake that was always left in position at the site of execution.

The Romans considered crucifixion so shameful a penalty that it could not be inflicted on Roman citizens. Roman crucifixion was always preceded by a scourging of the victim at the place of judgement. Then the criminal, still naked after the scourging, was made to carry his own cross (i.e.crossbeam) to the place of execution, where he was exposed to public ridicule and death. On top of the upright stake was fastened a placard with the culprit's name and a statement of the crime fror which he was being put to death. The full weight of the body hanging by the arms would prevent the right functioning of the lung muscles and so cause death by asphixiation after not too long a time. Therefore, to prolong the agony of the victim, support was given to his body by a kind of seat block and by binding or nailing his feet to the cross. Death could later be hastened by breaking the victim's legs (crurufragium), so that shock and asphyxiation soon ended his life. Sometimes, however, the side and heart would be pierced by a spear to cause immediate death.

BluesBrother

It might interest you to know that the WT.Society has a picture of Christians being crucified on cross beams not upright stakes,in the blood brochure.Did someone in the proof department overlook this photo.

Yes I have found it. "How can blood save Your life?", page 7. It is a reproduction of a painting by Gerome, dated 1883. The crosses are very small. Nobody noticed when we studied the brochure.

The Crucifixion in History

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