Some of my comments (and that of others) on other threads have highlighted a basic differance between those of us who belieave Jesus Christ did exist, and those of us who recon he did not. I belieave Jesus as described in the Gospells did not exist. So I decided to start a thread that adresses this issue face on. Let me gather my thoughts, and I'll post later. Meanwhile, anyone els who has their thoughts ready to post can beat me to it if you like.
Did Jesus Christ exist at all?
by Tyler 83 Replies latest watchtower bible
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freedom96
Even many scholors who do not believe that Jesus was the son of God believe he did exist.
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rem
Not really sure if a man named Jesus really existed and was the figure that the Christian cult was based on. One thing that is certain, though, is that the stories of the man Jesus being resurrected, along with all of the other miracles, are fiction. I'm not sure why anyone in this day and age still believes those stories are true.
rem
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Hamas
I think he did, I honestly do
Many people try to deface this fact, yet I believe he did exist, if not as most people say he was GOD in flesh. That just doesn't add up.
I think he was God's messenger, he never actually said he was God, or even God's son.
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hooberus
Jesus and Pilate
- Paul believed that Jesus was a historical person crucified under Pilate himself a historical person. Acts chapter 13:28 (Paul's sermon recorded by Church historian Luke). 1 Timothy 6:13
- Peter belived that Jesus Christ was a historical person crucified under Pilate himself a historical person. Acts Chapter 3:13; 4:27 (Peter's sermon's recorded by Church historian Luke.)
- Matthew believed that jesus Christ was a historical person crucified under Pilate himself a historical person Matthew Chapter 27
- Mark (who is said received his gospel from Peter) believed that Jesus Christ was a historical person crucifed under Pilate a historical person. Mark chapter 15
- John believed that Jesus Christ was a historical person crucified under Pilate himself a historical person. John chapter 19
- The church historian Luke believed that Jesus Christ was a historical person crucified under Pilate himself a historical person. Luke 3:1 Luke Chapter 23
- Jewish historian Josephus recorded that Jesus Christ was a historical person crucified under Pilate himself a historical person (some dispute this reference, though the below part is commonly accepted).
"and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him;"
- Roman Historian Tacitus (Ad 115 Annals 15.44. ) believed that Jesus Christ was a historical Person crucified under Pilate himself a historical person.
"But not all the relief that could come from man, not all the bounties that the prince could bestow, nor all the atonements which could be presented to the gods, availed to relieve Nero from the infamy of being believed to have ordered the conflagration, the fire of Rome. Hence to suppress the rumor, he falsely charged with the guilt, and punished Christians, who were hated for their enormities. Christus, the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius: but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originated, but through the city of Rome also, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their center and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind."
- Justin Martyr (147 A.D.) appealed to a document apparenty extant in his day called the "Acts of Pontius Pilate" as a historical reference for the fact of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ by Pontius Pilate. http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-46.htm#P3593_620967
The First Apology of Justin
Chapter XXXV.-Other Fulfilled Prophecies.
And the expression, "They pierced my hands and my feet," was used in reference to the nails of the cross which were fixed in His hands and feet. And after He was crucified they cast lots upon His vesture, and they that crucified Him parted it among them. And that these things did happen, you can ascertain from the Acts of Pontius Pilate. 71
71 aktwn . These Acts of Pontius Pilate, or regular accounts of his procedure sent by Pilate to the Emporer Tiberius, are supposed to have been destroyed at an early period, possibly in consequence of the unanswerable appeals which the Christians constantly made to them. There exists a forgery in imitation of these Acts. See Trollope. The above witnesses are all early (most first century) or refer to early documents. The witnesses are numerous and come from multiple sources. These witnesses are consistent with each other as well as the Roman manner of crucifixion. The historical evidence is that Jesus Christ was crucified under Pontius Pilate.
- Further evidence for the historicity of the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ by the Romans is the fact that his crucifixion almost exactly followed the Roman manner of crucifixion
Encyclopedia Brittanica Micropaedia Vol. 3 p.762
"There were various methods of performing the execution. Usually, the condemned man, after being whipped, or "scourged," dragged the crossbeam of his cross to the place of punishment, where the upright shaft was already fixed in the ground. Stripped of his clothing either then or earlier at his scourging, he was bound fast with outstrectched arms to the crossbeam or nailed firmly to it through the wrists. The crossbeam was then raised high against the upright shaft and made fast to it about 9 to 12 feet (approximately 3 metres) from the ground. Next, the feet were tightly bound or nailed to the upright shaft. A ledge inserted about halfway up the upright shaft gave some support to the body; evidence for a similar ledge for the feet is rare and late. Over the criminal's head was placed a notice stating his name and his crime. Death, apparently caused bu exhaustion or by heart failure, could be hastened by shattering the legs (crurifragium) with an iron club, so that shock and asphyxiation soon nded his life."
The same arcticle later says:
"in about AD 32 Pontius Pilate had Jesus of Nazareth put to death by crucifixion." Jesus and James
- Jewish historian Josephus recordes the following
Antiquities 20.9.1 But the younger Ananus who, as we said, received the high priesthood, was of a bold disposition and exceptionally daring; he followed the party of the Sadducees, who are severe in judgment above all the Jews, as we have already shown. As therefore Ananus was of such a disposition, he thought he had now a good opportunity, as Festus was now dead, and Albinus was still on the road; so he assembled a council of judges, and brought before it the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ, whose name was James, together with some others, and having accused them as law-breakers, he delivered them over to be stoned.
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Tyler
Ok, here goes...
Other than the Gospells themselfs, there is no contempory evidence for the existance of Christ. This is strange as the Romans were very literate and lots of letters an perefial writings all over the empire have been descovered. Among Jewish works there is the Talmud that makes very vague statemants that some recon refur to Jesus, but they controdict the gospels and are spurious anyway. Then there is Josephus who makes very glowing references to Jesus the Christ. The odd thing about Josephus is that every now and then he comes out with a perephial about Jesus, yet he devotes no chapter to him. Instead he writes pages about relatively unimportant thiefs and other criminals who were tried by Pilate, yet Jesus only gets the odd paragraph that is out of context to the chapter. Mmm. Some scholers have suggested that Christians imported these comments to give some credence to Jesus' existance in the face of there not being any. But of course, Christians know better!
Any counter arguments?
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hooberus
- Peter was an apostle of Jesus Christ and a witness to the sufferings of Christ
"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia," 1 Peter1:1
"The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:" 1 Peter 5:1
"Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:" 2 Peter 1:1 "For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty." 2 Peter 1:16- John was an apostle of Jesus Christ and a witness of him.
2: (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)" 1 John 1:1-2 Polycarp was a pupil of the Apostle John and supports the historicity of John as well as scriptural testimony of John being a witness."I remember well the place in which the holy Polycarp sat and spoke. I remember the discourses he delivered to the people, and how he described his relations with John, the apostle, and others who had been with the Lord; how he recited the sayings of Christ and the miracles he wrought; how he received his teachings from eyewitnesses who had seen the Word of Life, agreeing in every way with the Scriptures." Iranaeus Pupil of Polycarp quoted in Halley's Bible Handbook p. 764
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StinkyPantz
Hold on, let me go find a bunch of stuff to cut & paste here. . .
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rem
I agree that it is extremely suspicious that there are no contemporary records of Jesus' existence outside the bible. That's a bit odd. The reason that I'm still agnostic on this point is that, though there is little to no evidence of Jesus' existence, the existence of such a man (besides the miracles) is not an extraordinary claim. I don't usually require much evidence to accept ordinary claims, so I could buy the story that this guy existed just from the gospel accounts (though not in the way he is described). In the face of the weak negative evidence, though, (no contemporary accounts) I remain unconvinced either way. There is just not enough information to say one way or another with confidence.
rem
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Ravyn
no secular documents exist to prove the existence of any of the apostles either. and the mythos that surrounds the 'christ' is thousands of years older than the version that developed over the first 6 centuries AD.
while I seriously doubt that jesus or any of them existed per se, I do not invalidate the mythos and I do recognize early christianity as being as valid as any other belief system. but definitely not the first, only, or last valid and useful belief system.
Ravyn