2 Samuel chapter 24 - Don't mess with God!

by nicolaou 53 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • nicolaou
    nicolaou

    God tells David, "Don't count my people". David counts the people.

    God tells David, "'Cos you were naughty you gotta pick your punishment, will it be 'a' 7 years of famine, 'b' 3 months of national humiliation or 'c' 3 days of pestilence? Choose Davey boy!"

    Davey can't pick so God chooses option 3 for him and kills 70,000 Israelites.

    Rightly miffed, Dave says to God, "Hey! God! It was my fault, what are you picking on them for? What have they done?"

    But God is pissed off now, no answer - tell it to the hand King Dave!

    Well that learned him, don't mess with God. Dave thinks he better play it cool and keep the big guy sweet . . .

    ******************
    ******************

    (2 Samuel 24:1-25) 24

    And again the anger of Jehovah came to be hot against Israel, when one incited David against them, saying: "Go, take a count of Israel and Judah." 2 So the king said to Jo´ab the chief of the military forces who was with him: "Move about, please, through all the tribes of Israel, from Dan to Be´er-she´ba, and YOU men register the people, and I shall certainly know the number of the people." 3 But Jo´ab said to the king: "May Jehovah your God even add to the people a hundred times as many as they are while the very eyes of my lord the king are seeing it. But as for my lord the king, why has he found delight in this thing?" 4 Finally the king’s word prevailed upon Jo´ab and the chiefs of the military forces. So Jo´ab and the chiefs of the military forces went out from before the king to register the people Israel. 5 Then they crossed the Jordan and took up camping at A·ro´er to the right of the city that is in the middle of the torrent valley, toward the Gad´ites, and to Ja´zer. 6 After that they came on to Gil´e·ad and the land of Tah´tim-hod´shi and continued on to Dan-ja´an and went around to Si´don. 7 Then they came to the fortress of Tyre and all the cities of the Hi´vites and of the Ca´naan·ites and came to the terminating point in the Neg´eb of Judah at Be´er-she´ba. 8 Thus they went moving about through all the land and came to Jerusalem at the end of nine months and twenty days. 9 Jo´ab now gave the number of the registration of the people to the king; and Israel amounted to eight hundred thousand valiant men drawing sword, and the men of Judah were five hundred thousand men. 10 And David’s heart began to beat him after he had so numbered the people. Consequently David said to Jehovah: "I have sinned very much in what I have done. And now, Jehovah, let your servant’s error pass by, please; for I have acted very foolishly." 11 When David proceeded to rise up in the morning, Jehovah’s word itself came to Gad the prophet, David’s visionary, saying: 12 "Go, and you must say to David, ‘This is what Jehovah has said: "Three things I am laying upon you. Choose for yourself one of them that I may do it to you."’" 13 Accordingly Gad came in to David and told him and said to him: "Should there come to you seven years of famine in your land, or three months of your fleeing before your adversaries, with them pursuing you, or the occurring of three days of pestilence in your land? Now know and see what I shall reply to the One sending me." 14 So David said to Gad: "It is very distressing to me. Let us fall, please, into the hand of Jehovah, for many are his mercies; but into the hand of man do not let me fall." 15 Then Jehovah gave a pestilence in Israel from the morning until the time appointed, so that out of the people from Dan to Be´er-she´ba seventy thousand persons died. 16 And the angel kept his hand thrust out toward Jerusalem to bring it to ruin; and Jehovah began to feel regret over the calamity, and so he said to the angel that was bringing ruin among the people: "It is enough! Now let your hand drop." And Jehovah’s angel himself happened to be close by the threshing floor of A·rau´nah the Jeb´u·site. 17 And David proceeded to say to Jehovah, when he saw the angel that was striking the people down, yes, he proceeded to say: "Here it is I that have sinned and it is I that have done wrong; but these sheep—what have they done? Let your hand, please, come upon me and upon the house of my father." 18 Later Gad came in to David on that day and said to him: "Go up, set up for Jehovah an altar on the threshing floor of A·rau´nah the Jeb´u·site." 19 And David began to go up in accord with the word of Gad, according to what Jehovah had commanded. 20 When A·rau´nah looked down and saw the king and his servants passing along toward him, A·rau´nah at once went out and bowed down to the king with his face to the earth. 21 Then A·rau´nah said: "Why has my lord the king come to his servant?" At that David said: "To buy from you the threshing floor for building an altar to Jehovah, that the scourge may be halted from upon the people." 22 But A·rau´nah said to David: "Let my lord the king take it and offer up what is good in his eyes. See the cattle for the burnt offering and the threshing sledge and the implements of the cattle for the wood. 23 Everything A·rau´nah, O king, does give to the king." And A·rau´nah went on to say to the king: "May Jehovah your God show pleasure in you." 24 However, the king said to A·rau´nah: "No, but without fail I shall buy it from you for a price; and I shall not offer up to Jehovah my God burnt sacrifices without cost." Accordingly David bought the threshing floor and the cattle for fifty silver shekels. 25 And David proceeded to build there an altar to Jehovah and offer up burnt sacrifices and communion sacrifices, and Jehovah began letting himself be entreated for the land, so that the scourge was halted from upon Israel.
  • scout575
    scout575

    Nicolaou: Faced with such a depraved portrayal of the 'god of love' Christians have a choice of: A - God is psychopathic B - the account is fictitious C - the 70,000 Israelites who were executed just happened to be 'wicked' anyway and deserved to to be killed by god. What a heartwarming choice that is.

  • kid-A
    kid-A

    Oh Lord Please Don't Burn Us
    Oh Lord, please don't burn us.
    Don't grill or toast Your flock.
    Don't put us on the barbecue
    Or simmer us in stock.
    Don't braise or bake or boil us
    Or stir-fry us in a wok.
    Oh, please don't lightly poach us
    Or baste us with hot fat.
    Don't fricassee or roast us
    Or boil us in a vat,
    And please don't stick Thy servants, Lord,
    In a Rotissomat.

    Composers: Eric Idle & John Du Prez
    Authors: Graham Chapman & John Cleese
    From the 'Meaning of Life' album

  • RunningMan
    RunningMan

    There are a couple of other things worth mentioning here. There is a parallel account (1 Chronicles 21 as well as 2 Samuel). In one of those accounts, it says that Satan tempted David to take the census. In the other, it says that God tempted David to do it.

    Also, what's wrong with taking a census anyway? There were lots of them, and nobody else got toasted:

    · 2 Chron 2:17,18 - Solomon conducts a census.

    · 2 Chron 25:5 - King Amaziah mustered and counted all men 20 years of age and older.

    · 2 Chron 26:11-13 - King Uzziah counted soldiers.

    · Ezra 2:64, 65 - The returnees from

    · Nehemiah 7 - Jews are numbered as they return to their villages.

    · The Israelites were divided and governed in groups of 10, 100, and 1000. This would not be possible without a census. (1 Chron 13:1)

    · The count of the Israelites by tribe was given at numerous times throughout their history (see the first 10 chapters of Chronicles and Numbers)

    · God commanded Moses to take a census (Numbers 4:1,2).

    · God gave Moses instructions on how to take a census (Ex 30:12).

  • nicolaou
    nicolaou

    I kinda posted this topic in tandem with my other one today - like you hadn't already guessed.

    I'd really like a believers take on this account.

  • Woodsman
    Woodsman

    This account is only three chapters past 21. I previously posted on the human sacrifice of seven men to appease the Gibeonites and please God so he would remove the famine. Like you I was looking to see if anyone wanted to justify this account.

    Then God kills 70 grand in chapter 24. Because their leader screwed up. My leader is apparently a big screwball. Maybe God should kill a 100,000 grand Americans and make things better.

    Imagine the headlines, "GOD KILLS 100,000, BUSH PROMISES TO BEHAVE"

    I think that would make many "want" to love him.

    Nice post, it would have made a nice #2 talk. remember those?

  • Shining One
    Shining One

    Translating the numbers of the Hebrew language is a challenging thing to say the least. We don't really know the number of Israelites that died because of David's sin. What's your point: that God causes people to die? By His very nature He sets the clock on your heart and mine. None died sooner nor later than they should have regardless of the cause.
    The big thing that stands in the way of some of you ex-dubs is your apparent ignorance of the immortal soul. This fact makes the physical life span a mere 'footnote' in the length of life in eternity. Are we supposed to conclude that God is evil; or the scriptures are not reliable because of difficult passages like this?
    If so, you are using a logical fallacy.
    If you are an atheist now, so what? Move on with your life instead of whining over scripture that you don't believe to begin with.
    Rex

  • nicolaou
    nicolaou

    Hi Woodsman

    Yes, these topics are avoided like the plague by believers because god shows himself to be such a freakin' embarrasment!

    (2 Samuel 21:3) 3

    And David went on to say to the Gib´e·on·ites: "What shall I do to YOU, and with what shall I make atonement, that YOU may certainly bless the inheritance of Jehovah?"

    (2 Samuel 21:9) 9

    Then he gave them [seven children] into the hand of the Gib´e·on·ites and they proceeded to expose them on the mountain before Jehovah, so that the seven of them fell together; and they themselves were put to death in the first days of harvest, at the start of the barley harvest.. . .

    May Jehovah continue to be blessed...

  • nicolaou
    nicolaou

    Hmmm, missed your post while composing my previous one. There are so many things wrong with it - hope you don't mind if I pick them out.
    ******************

    Translating the numbers of the Hebrew language is a challenging thing to say the least. And irrelevant. We don't really know the number of Israelites that died because of David's sin. Why should any die because of Davids sin - even one?! What's your point: that God causes people to die? Actually I don't believe God exists but for those that do believe in the God of the Bible, yes, he does kill innocent people. By His very nature He sets the clock on your heart and mine. Bunkum. Prove it. None died sooner nor later than they should have regardless of the cause. Even now? Tsunami victims, child murders - they all died at God's due time eh? Sick.

    The big thing that stands in the way of some of you ex-dubs is your apparent ignorance of the immortal soul. This fact fact? FACT?! makes the physical life span a mere 'footnote' in the length of life in eternity. Are we supposed to conclude that God is evil; or the scriptures are not reliable because of difficult passages like this? Yes, I think we are.
    If so, you are using a logical fallacy. Where? God and logic have to be shoehorned into the same sentence.
    If you are an atheist now, so what? Move on with your life instead of whining over scripture that you don't believe to begin with. But I did believe it, for decades. Now that I'm free I want to help free a few more minds, after all there are a lot of nice people here. Sorry if you thought I was whining.
    Nic'

  • Elsewhere
    Elsewhere

    And David proceeded to build there an altar to Jehovah and offer up burnt sacrifices and communion sacrifices, and Jehovah began letting himself be entreated for the land, so that the scourge was halted from upon Israel.

    I don't get it. Why do people offer gifts to deities who commit atrocities???

    If I were him, I'd say:

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